Game thread: #11 Lady Vols host Georgia. Sunday, March 2, Noon ET, SECN

[creekdipper]

Give the women time. Let alone a women who birthed a whole baby during the season.

Want the bumper sticker.

 

[Lucy]

I get that it is different posters making these statements but it is amazing that the tone of the board has gone from "CKC is another genius hire from DW. She is going to be the next Pat Summitt!!!" to "maybe we need a new coach!"

This team is built to rely on the 3 pt shot and when they go 6-28 (21%) and don't dominate the boards, it is hard to win. You get that % up to 33% that is 9 more points and most probably a win. And, the team shot 1-10 from 3 and 2-16 from inside during the fatal 1st quarter.

People can complain about shot selection but most of our threes were wide open. Except for Jewel, GA was not closing out and they should have been punished. Tess was 1-5 and only one was a forced shot with the shot clock running out.

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This stat box is telling. The LVs won all those categories but the margins were all relatively small. CKC's game dependents on generating a lot more points of TO than the opponent, whereas GA played it just about even.

On the flip side, this system did close a 23 point gap but they fell apart down the stretch when they actually had a 3 point lead. I think that is where Coop's absence was really felt. She has been the team's closer all season.

My grade is that CKC's spread offense is fine. Players need to hit shots and we have too many shots missed at the rim. A mobile post which would let Zee play more at the 4 would be a big boost to this offense. I expect action in the transfer portal to fill this gap.

Defensively, I think it is fair to now say that the "we will press the opponent into submission and out hustle everyone until they surrender" was a pipe dream that never had a chance once the competition ramped up.

Good teams (and now mediocre ones like GA) break the LV press with relative ease. KY was actually licking their chomps in facing it. Our defense now, more often then not, consists of players running beside a player trying not foul as the ball advances up the court.

Defensively, we are working harder not smarter and the LVs seem to be the team wearing down.

Cooper, Boyd, Spearman, Whitehorn, and Spencer all have the capabilities to be lock down perimeter defenders. Enough of the gimmicks, just play a straight up man-to-man D with some occassional zone traps thrown in the mix.

This high press stuff is now a lot of futile effort that gets our players constantly out of position and gives up just about as many easy buckerts as it generates in TO points.

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

 

[Volfan2012]

And unfortunately I think winning one and then losing to Vandy knocks Tennessee out of hosting. Tennessee's the only team in the top 25 with a Q4 loss. Their end of season trajectory is a bit of a tailspin right now. They've been blown out on the road, beaten at home by a really really really bad team, and going 1-1 in the SECT would mean they're limping across the finish beating the worst team in the SEC and then losing to a decent but not top 15 Vanderbilt team.

Again, the only team in the top 25 with a quad 4 loss, and that loss is fresh. Just think they need to beat both to even have a chance at this point.

We have no chance to host unless we win the first two and then we need a little help like a few teams I'd say three losing the first game they play.

 

[Volfan2012]

7 players had 3 points or less. Not much to solve.

You make 3 of 23 shot attempts Knoxville Central would probably have the lead in the game. I will say that Georgia forced the three shot and that seemed to be their game plan. We had the looks we couldn't make them.

 

[Lucy]

Here are the Senior Day photos. It really is nice to see them. And the photos including families are especially touching. Thank you, ladies! And let’s rally and finish strong in the tournaments!

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Looks like the Darby’s had one of those late in life surprises!
Keeps you young!

 

[DarkPhoenix]

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

I’m no guru but my answer is E, I think this team is missing that one go to player, as an example I’ll use Rickea. This is the type of supporting cast Rickea needed around her to compete for a Championship. I do have other things to say but I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Puppeteer]

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

Will you take anyone's opinion or would you prefer just vol opinions?

 

[madtownvol]

I’m no guru but my answer is E, I think this team is missing that one go to player, as an example I’ll use Rickea. This is the type of supporting cast Rickea needed around her to compete for a Championship. I do have other things to say but I’ll leave it at that.

No guru either but having an elite offensive player (as opposed to good players who have some great nights) would help matters a lot.

Per Lucy's other options.

I don't think the problem is with the athletes (A)--Spencer, Whitehorn, Coop, Spearman, Boyd, Latham, and even Hollingshead are all good fits with this system and Jewel has improved considerably on he defensive side. That 8 players who should be able to implement this defensive scheme. There is a bit of gap when Puckett and Darby are on the floor in their limited minutes but I don't think they are the main problem in the press getting broken or giving up too many easy shots.

Per D, Hitting lots of 3s will paper over defensive cracks. A more consistent shooting team from outside would have been a big asset. If they scored 100 hundred every game, their defensive woes would not matter that much.

I think B and C are kind of the same issue-- teams have figured out how to beat the press and its not a well-designed defensive scheme. That combo strikes me as the BINGO option.

 

[Volfan2012]

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

We make enough threes we probably have about two losses. Definitely need a few different players to press effectively in the SEC. We only have five I would say that are effective. Not a good defense unless you have a big on the end to stop the layups. If your going to over commit with two player traps you need a big that can play defense at the end of it. What I have seen lately is teams just sit in a zone pack the paint and give certain players the three. We don't have an inside presence so we can't make them stop. Overall the problem is just not making shots that we are given. I haven't seen any defense that is making us look bad maybe SC a lot of that game. We just like to throw something up fifteen seconds into the shot clock. Noticed some players turning down open shots and sometimes we get in a short shot clock and have to make a desperation attempt. It is obvious teams are doing everything they can to prevent Jewell and Tess from shooting three. Everybody else they say shoot one even Spencer. Seems teams know every play we run and last three games Ruby is getting stuffed on every drive.

 

[Volfan2012]

Even Auburn got off to a early lead but we found our offense in this game. We need to find it again quick.

 

[LadyVol1908]

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

I’d say B! If you’re going to be a pressing team, at least have 2 to 3 types of presses to mix it up and keep teams off balance! But as it’s been said 1,000 times, you have to make shots to even set a press up!

 

[BruisedOrange]

We make enough threes we probably have about two losses. Definitely need a few different players to press effectively in the SEC. We only have five I would say that are effective. Not a good defense unless you have a big on the end to stop the layups. If your going to over commit with two player traps you need a big that can play defense at the end of it. What I have seen lately is teams just sit in a zone pack the paint and give certain players the three. We don't have an inside presence so we can't make them stop. Overall the problem is just not making shots that we are given. I haven't seen any defense that is making us look bad maybe SC a lot of that game. We just like to throw something up fifteen seconds into the shot clock. Noticed some players turning down open shots and sometimes we get in a short shot clock and have to make a desperation attempt. It is obvious teams are doing everything they can to prevent Jewell and Tess from shooting three. Everybody else they say shoot one even Spencer. Seems teams know every play we run and last three games Ruby is getting stuffed on every drive.

I'll offer a different thought on having one of our bigs deep when we press.

Most teams that beat our press had numbers, with one player near the baseline about 10-15 feet from the basket, and another on the opposite side, also baseline, waiting behind the 3-point line. Our deep defender (usually a slow big) often positioned herself trying to split the difference between the two (and thus, unable to prevent either pass). Not good.

More than size, what's needed is a fast defender who will initially position inside to force the pass to the outside player, then use her speed get out there in her face before she can shoot the 3, while our next farthest back defender has turned and run to front the offensive player near the basket.

Also, the further back our initial pressers stop forward progress, the longer that pass has to be.

But if the pressing D allows someone to leak up the sideline into the front court unguarded... then our deep defender just has no good angle to defend a pass from there.

Remember, CKC did this for years against the same coaches, year-after-year. It wasn't "SEC-level coaching" that "solved" her press this season. It had to be either the players or the players' performance. I think after we've seen next year's roster in action we'll (1) appreciate this year's team for what they accomplished, as we (2) realize how mismatched they were to the tasks demanded.
IMHO

 

[Chippo]

I’d say B! If you’re going to be a pressing team, at least have 2 to 3 types of presses to mix it up and keep teams off balance! But as it’s been said 1,000 times, you have to make shots to even set a press up!

My opinion which is like everyone else
Having one is a combination of AB&C.

 

[madtownvol]

I'll offer a different thought on having one of our bigs deep when we press.

Most teams that beat our press had numbers, with one player near the baseline about 10-15 feet from the basket, and another on the opposite side, also baseline, waiting behind the 3-point line. Our deep defender (usually a slow big) often positioned herself trying to split the difference between the two (and thus, unable to prevent either pass). Not good.

More than size, what's needed is a fast defender who will initially position inside to force the pass to the outside player, then use her speed get out there in her face before she can shoot the 3, while our next farthest back defender has turned and run to front the offensive player near the basket.

Also, the further back our initial pressers stop forward progress, the longer that pass has to be.

But if the pressing D allows someone to leak up the sideline into the front court unguarded... then our deep defender just has no good angle to defend a pass from there.

Remember, CKC did this for years against the same coaches, year-after-year. It wasn't "SEC-level coaching" that "solved" her press this season. It had to be either the players or the players' performance. I think after we've seen next year's roster in action we'll (1) appreciate this year's team for what they accomplished, as we (2) realize how mismatched they were to the tasks demanded.
IMHO

Your analysis of how opponents beat our press is really good. I don't think the issue, however, is the speed of our post players- which would either be Spearman, who is faster than most bigs, Jillian or Latham. My interpretation of your analysis is that this defensive scheme consistently puts our post players in a "no-mans" land. The ball will always move faster than a player so expecting a post player to cover that ground is not realistic. I have seen Spearman make some super human recoveries but those plays always involved cases where the opponent made a bad pass or fumbled the catch, which slowed things down just enough.

Honestly, i can't understand how the staff has kept repeating this same set-up after it has been consistently beaten other than sheer stubbornness. CKC has been getting a pass for this vulnerability all season, as folks are inclined to blame the players but it is the coaching staff that keeps putting them in this set-up.

 

[Lucy]

Will you take anyone's opinion or would you prefer just vol opinions?

Anyone! I love learning from anyone!

 

[BruisedOrange]

Your analysis of how opponents beat our press is really good. I don't think the issue, however, is the speed of our post players- which would either be Spearman, who is faster than most bigs, Jillian or Latham. My interpretation of your analysis is that this defensive scheme consistently puts our post players in a "no-mans" land. The ball will always move faster than a player so expecting a post player to cover that ground is not realistic. I have seen Spearman make some super human recoveries but those plays always involved cases where the opponent made a bad pass or fumbled the catch, which slowed things down just enough.

Honestly, i can't understand how the staff has kept repeating this same set-up after it has been consistently beaten other than sheer stubbornness. CKC has been getting a pass for this vulnerability all season, as folks are inclined to blame the players but it is the coaching staff that keeps putting them in this set-up.

I'm saying our deep defender has been putting herself in no man's land. Better to force the ball to the receiver of your choice, and force the 2nd pass to the player most within range of our next deepest defender. More passes, more chances of an error.

I think you answered your own question: why would the coaches repeat what hasn't worked? The only logical reason is because the players haven't done it as designed. The coach who knows this best wasn't seeing a failure of concept, but of execution. IMHO

 

[madtownvol]

I'm saying our deep defender has been putting herself in no man's land. Better to force the ball to the receiver of your choice, and force the 2nd pass to the player most within range of our next deepest defender. More passes, more chances of an error.

I think you answered your own question: why would the coaches repeat what hasn't worked? The only logical reason is because the players haven't done it as designed. The coach who knows this best wasn't seeing a failure of concept, but of execution. IMHO

Let's flip around. If the coaches see the same players' making the same mistake over and over again and doesn't find a means correct that execution error - then that problem is on the coaches. The buck stops there.

I would say that equally logical conclusion is not that the coaches are inexplicably tolerating a repeated lack of execution but, instead, that the post players are doing what the coaches are instructing in terms of their positioning, Perhaps they think the post player can jump a pass lane or something but a PG who makes a good read takes away that possibility.

Against GA, I did see one player where a player got behind Jillian (and I think Latham) and both looked at each other in a "I thought you had her" kind of way. So, that one was an execution breakdown.

 

[Coach Jumper]

In my admittedly limited experience compared to Wilt, the ladies actually prefer the latter.

as long as the latter is pace not mentality

 

[BruisedOrange]

One thing we should all agree on: When you hire a coach who has a system (like Heupel), you hire them to run their system from day one, demonstrating what they want, then recruiting players to fit it.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

B) We mostly have one in the post and other teams are attacking the post and employing a weakside cutter for a dish-option...one post can not cover two players

and E) can't say much more, but I can say the obvious: we have many attacking the paint into a 1 on 2-3 situation and not looking for a kick-out pass to an open shooter....instead opting to force a late in the clock heave

And except for Cooper and every now and then Ruby,,, no one else has a midrange game

 

[Puppeteer]

Anyone! I love learning from anyone!

Ok, my simple take is that "the press" is not working. It worked against a weak out of conference schedule but it does not seem to be working against teams with superior athletes. It seems that "the press" is not really a press. For the most part I see the Tennessee players running side by side with the opposing team's players. It's more like a full court soft man to man defense. When Tennesse is able to trap, the better teams with great athletes are able to throw over the top and break it easily. When that happens, it's a bunch of energy wasted and it has to take a toll mentally. Also, as many posters have said, subbing out your top 5 after a minute or two is just a momentum killer and you have these massive substitutions where it's very hard for them if not impossible to get into a flow. I think more team's would use a press if it had a good track record, but it doesn't. I think the press works much better at div 2 and 3 schools and is best used sporadically and depending on the situation in the top division 1 schools. I also may get negative comments here, but I am not being a uconn jerk here. Tennesse needs a go-to, take over the game, "attitude" player like Taurasi, like Parker, like Catchings, like Bird. Cooper to me is not that player, at least not this year. If you try and play hero ball, at the very least, you have to make the hero plays and that's not happening. Assists have to mean just as much to the go-to player as a shot clock ending 3. All the better teams have at least one go-to player...Hidalgo, Ju-Ju, Betts, Blakes, Latson, Miles, Booker and yes, I know some don't like her here, but Bueckers too. I am not sure if there are internal problems with the team because that is a whole different ball game and extremely hard to fix with only a few games remaining. I do think more athletic reinforcements are coming next year for you guys which will help tremendously. However, I just think "the press" has to go and CKC has to find that "go-to" player whether via high school recruit or via portal. And most importantly everyone has to play unselfishly.

 

[th2421]

I'm saying our deep defender has been putting herself in no man's land. Better to force the ball to the receiver of your choice, and force the 2nd pass to the player most within range of our next deepest defender. More passes, more chances of an error.

I think you answered your own question: why would the coaches repeat what hasn't worked? The only logical reason is because the players haven't done it as designed. The coach who knows this best wasn't seeing a failure of concept, but of execution. IMHO

I tend to agree, but I would also think the coaching staff is okay with this happening a couple times per game, just not repeatedly. If the rest of the press is working as designed and forcing turnovers, then they're fine with a few easy baskets, just like they're fine with our FG% defense not being very good...as long as we're forcing turnovers, getting a ton of offensive rebounds, and hitting 3s.

Wonder what the gurus (and we really do have several on here) think.
Is the issue:
A) we don’t have enough of the right type of athletes to run this press defense
B) with just this press we are too one dimensional on defense and opposing coaches have this already figured out
C) the press we are attempting is not a well designed defense
D) all good we just have to hit our threes
E) something else, extra credit given for saving what!
I will hang up and look forward to thoughts!

A) I think somewhat, yes, and it will be interesting to see what next year looks like with hopefully the top 10 players all recruited to play in this system. I love them all but Darby, Hollingshead, and Spear are in the bottom 3 on the team in player defensive rating and defensive win shares (per HHS). Hollingshead is last on the team in steal %, and Spear and Darby are in the bottom 1/3.

B) I'm not sure about opponents figuring out our defense, but I do think, as others have mentioned, they've figured out a lot of our offense, particularly our plays for Ruby. We likely don't have time before the SECT but I hope we add a few wrinkles before the NCAAT. After that, it's an area I hope to see Coach CKC grow next year. I get that it's a fine line, though, because players seem to love to play for her (and sign to play for her as recruits) because of the offensive freedom of this system.

C) I don't think it's poorly designed, but may need adaptations in Year 2. We also proved we can win big games even when the press is less effective (see: UConn).

D) Maybe not "all good", but getting more consistent 3-point shooters next year would really help. Other teams near the top of the SEC aren't so far off from us in 3-point %/having a group of elite 3-point shooters, but their systems don't rely as much on putting up so many 3s.

E) Assuming/hoping there are no lockerroom issues, mental/physical/emotional fatigue seems very real for the team right now. This may be another adjustment for Coach CKC in Year 2. I LOVE how hard she pushes the team and her tough love approach (it's been seriously missing since Pat), but there may need to be a reconfiguration of how we practice for the gruel of the SEC.