Game Thread: #23/24 TENNESSEE VS. #1/1 STANFORD

[Hoosier]

BTW while a 27 point loss is unacceptable to me, too, it could be worse --- Missouri lost to PRINCETON by 35 the other day, and Duke lost to So. Carolina by 43 -- talk about falling programs!

 

[PG1]

I have coached kids in their late teens who had to have explained terms like: weak-side help, help defense, the difference between Elbow extended versus foul-line extended...etc.

There are players that are used for their size or singular skills that falls through the learning aspect of the game...so I have to disagree with an overall perception

But you are obviously the female basketball whisperer! I can’t understand why you are not sitting next to Geno. It’s obvious you believe you can coach up any kid at any aspect of the game. Now I say this with sarcasm for sure but also with curiosity of if you are so well known to be so good why don’t the UT current and previous staff consult you?

 

[Coach Jumper]

But you are obviously the female basketball whisperer! I can’t understand why you are not sitting next to Geno. It’s obvious you believe you can coach up any kid at any aspect of the game. Now I say this with sarcasm for sure but also with curiosity of if you are so well known to be so good why don’t the UT current and previous staff consult you?

Possibly for the same reason that Phil Fulmer has me blocked in his email....CHW's tenure

I came on VolNation in Feb of 2016,,,Having just coached a 16U team out of Morristown.
Though the team was the third tier team of the org, they won 80% of the games we played...as far as I know 7 of my nine went on to play college ball...the best at JMU, Savannah Felgemacher, who became the first freshman in JMU history to post a dub-dub in her first ever JMU game.

I went through proper channels and contacted Meme's HS coach and he referred me to Meme's mom. We emailed a couple of times and Meme ultimately considered me a good enough prospect to work with her over the summer. Meme approached CHW and asked for me. CHW denied her request and left me a phone message telling me she refused Meme.

I refused to give up on Meme because she had the fortitude to ask for me and the way the team and she was going, I put her above me and began to mentor her through emails. Meme began to flourish, even becoming the last-introduced for a span (Last player announced is trditionally the featured player). Meme and I went through her Jr and Sr year with me as a mentor. Over 150 emails over that span. I was careful not to tell Meme movements and gameplans, as that was her coach's responsibility and I would as a a coach myself, frown on anyone tell my players what to do in a game. .. I concentrated on motivating her with the right words and addressing her on-court mentality. Telling her things like "Don't be one dimensional (e,g,,a def stopper),,,play every aspect of the game...shoot, defend, dish, rebound...literally, dot EVERY stat line, as doing so puts you in part of every aspect of the game"...Meme was arguably the only athlete who truly progressed during CHW's tenure and there had to be a reason why.

In that same timeframe, I got a little forceful when the spiral continued and posted in the "fire Holly" postings.

I then began to see that the team was strong in the start and weakened as the season progressed. I began to look intently at the in-game things,,,like, timeout huddles, and pre-game moods. I began to read body language of the players and staff and notinced immediately that none of the staff would address CHW during timeouts and pre-game. I considered that CHW had a vision and that if the staff questioned it, they were soon gone.

So I began to address the staff to bone up and "either fully support CHW or do something about it...stand up an say something". I also wrote the then AD and addressed him. I was, as I am, forceful and he blocked me. . . I was watching my chosen program go through the worst part of it's storied history and refused to sit by and not at least try to do something about it.

Being such a person as I am, people either love me or hate me, but rare few are are indifferent about me.
Just like on this site
Fulmer is no different. He was a CHW backer and obviously rode the hate side of the train.
But knowing a simple truth, ((People usually forget why they know you and ultimately only remember THAT they know you))...I pushed on.

And this is where I am at now.
I still have no doubt that I can coach any kid, on any level.
But those that count, are hesitant and tentative at giving me the opportunity.
I understand why,
but still believe I would have been the difference maker during CHW's tenure and still can be one.

PS, the "basketball whisperer" tag was very cute and creative.

 

[Rixxx]

BTW while a 27 point loss is unacceptable to me, too, it could be worse --- Missouri lost to PRINCETON by 35 the other day, and Duke lost to So. Carolina by 43 -- talk about falling programs!

Someone mentioned the other day that Sophie Cunningham is missed or Sophie was Missouri

 

[NoBackBoard]

BTW while a 27 point loss is unacceptable to me, too, it could be worse --- Missouri lost to PRINCETON by 35 the other day, and Duke lost to So. Carolina by 43 -- talk about falling programs!

Any comparison to Duke helps prove the other poster’s point. Duke, previously a title game contender, has been in a state of turmoil and mediocrity for years now.

 

[And1]

Possibly for the same reason that Phil Fulmer has me blocked in his email....CHW's tenure

I came on VolNation in Feb of 2016,,,Having just coached a 16U team out of Morristown.
Though the team was the third tier team of the org, they won 80% of the games we played...as far as I know 7 of my nine went on to play college ball...the best at JMU, Savannah Felgemacher, who became the first freshman in JMU history to post a dub-dub in her first ever JMU game.

I went through proper channels and contacted Meme's HS coach and he referred me to Meme's mom. We emailed a couple of times and Meme ultimately considered me a good enough prospect to work with her over the summer. Meme approached CHW and asked for me. CHW denied her request and left me a phone message telling me she refused Meme.

I refused to give up on Meme because she had the fortitude to ask for me and the way the team and she was going, I put her above me and began to mentor her through emails. Meme began to flourish, even becoming the last-introduced for a span (Last player announced is trditionally the featured player). Meme and I went through her Jr and Sr year with me as a mentor. Over 150 emails over that span. I was careful not to tell Meme movements and gameplans, as that was her coach's responsibility and I would as a a coach myself, frown on anyone tell my players what to do in a game. .. I concentrated on motivating her with the right words and addressing her on-court mentality. Telling her things like "Don't be one dimensional (e,g,,a def stopper),,,play every aspect of the game...shoot, defend, dish, rebound...literally, dot EVERY stat line, as doing so puts you in part of every aspect of the game"...Meme was arguably the only athlete who truly progressed during CHW's tenure and there had to be a reason why.

In that same timeframe, I got a little forceful when the spiral continued and posted in the "fire Holly" postings.

I then began to see that the team was strong in the start and weakened as the season progressed. I began to look intently at the in-game things,,,like, timeout huddles, and pre-game moods. I began to read body language of the players and staff and notinced immediately that none of the staff would address CHW during timeouts and pre-game. I considered that CHW had a vision and that if the staff questioned it, they were soon gone.

So I began to address the staff to bone up and "either fully support CHW or do something about it...stand up an say something". I also wrote the then AD and addressed him. I was, as I am, forceful and he blocked me. . . I was watching my chosen program go through the worst part of it's storied history and refused to sit by and not at least try to do something about it.

Being such a person as I am, people either love me or hate me, but rare few are are indifferent about me.
Just like on this site
Fulmer is no different. He was a CHW backer and obviously rode the hate side of the train.
But knowing a simple truth, ((People usually forget why they know you and ultimately only remember THAT they know you))...I pushed on.

And this is where I am at now.
I still have no doubt that I can coach any kid, on any level.
But those that count, are hesitant and tentative at giving me the opportunity.
I understand why,
but still believe I would have been the difference maker during CHW's tenure and still can be one.

PS, the "basketball whisperer" tag was very cute and creative.

I doubt there is anyone on this board that can hire you, so it seems you are appealing to the wrong crowd. I think that is the issue most have with your posts.

 

[PG1]

Possibly for the same reason that Phil Fulmer has me blocked in his email....CHW's tenure

I came on VolNation in Feb of 2016,,,Having just coached a 16U team out of Morristown.
Though the team was the third tier team of the org, they won 80% of the games we played...as far as I know 7 of my nine went on to play college ball...the best at JMU, Savannah Felgemacher, who became the first freshman in JMU history to post a dub-dub in her first ever JMU game.

I went through proper channels and contacted Meme's HS coach and he referred me to Meme's mom. We emailed a couple of times and Meme ultimately considered me a good enough prospect to work with her over the summer. Meme approached CHW and asked for me. CHW denied her request and left me a phone message telling me she refused Meme.

I refused to give up on Meme because she had the fortitude to ask for me and the way the team and she was going, I put her above me and began to mentor her through emails. Meme began to flourish, even becoming the last-introduced for a span (Last player announced is trditionally the featured player). Meme and I went through her Jr and Sr year with me as a mentor. Over 150 emails over that span. I was careful not to tell Meme movements and gameplans, as that was her coach's responsibility and I would as a a coach myself, frown on anyone tell my players what to do in a game. .. I concentrated on motivating her with the right words and addressing her on-court mentality. Telling her things like "Don't be one dimensional (e,g,,a def stopper),,,play every aspect of the game...shoot, defend, dish, rebound...literally, dot EVERY stat line, as doing so puts you in part of every aspect of the game"...Meme was arguably the only athlete who truly progressed during CHW's tenure and there had to be a reason why.

In that same timeframe, I got a little forceful when the spiral continued and posted in the "fire Holly" postings.

I then began to see that the team was strong in the start and weakened as the season progressed. I began to look intently at the in-game things,,,like, timeout huddles, and pre-game moods. I began to read body language of the players and staff and notinced immediately that none of the staff would address CHW during timeouts and pre-game. I considered that CHW had a vision and that if the staff questioned it, they were soon gone.

So I began to address the staff to bone up and "either fully support CHW or do something about it...stand up an say something". I also wrote the then AD and addressed him. I was, as I am, forceful and he blocked me. . . I was watching my chosen program go through the worst part of it's storied history and refused to sit by and not at least try to do something about it.

Being such a person as I am, people either love me or hate me, but rare few are are indifferent about me.
Just like on this site
Fulmer is no different. He was a CHW backer and obviously rode the hate side of the train.
But knowing a simple truth, ((People usually forget why they know you and ultimately only remember THAT they know you))...I pushed on.

And this is where I am at now.
I still have no doubt that I can coach any kid, on any level.
But those that count, are hesitant and tentative at giving me the opportunity.
I understand why,
but still believe I would have been the difference maker during CHW's tenure and still can be one.

PS, the "basketball whisperer" tag was very cute and creative.

You do know that the UT Athletic Dept probably get thousands of emails from fans of every sport saying I can coach better or teach players better than the Coaches you are paying to do that won’t work so I suggest at the next home game run up to Coach Harper and tell her that you are Coach Jumper and you are here to help. Trust me you will get all the attention you are looking for.

 

[Volfan2012]

So through the Stanford game here is what the players totals and other stats look like.

Davis is averaging 23.6 points per game per forty minutes played and 12 rebounds per forty minutes
Burrell is at 18 points per 40 minutes and 11.2 rebounds
Horston 14.8 points and 10.4 rebounds
KK 18 points and 13.2 rebounds
Key 18 points and 11.2 rebounds

There actual total minutes played come out to 107 per game so you can see somebody else is playing 93 minutes of the game other than our five most productive players. There 107 total minutes played production is 50.1 points and 31 rebounds. So the Big Five are going for .47 points per minute played and .29 rebounds per minute played.


Massengill 10.8 and 8 rebounds per forty minutes. Her actual is 26.6 minutes which goes for 7..1 points and 5.3 rebounds per game.
Saunders who is only playing 9 minutes per game is at 16.4 per forty and 9.6 rebounds. Saunders actual is 3.8 points and 2.2 rebounds so we need more data on her from more minutes played and even though she has better numbers than three of the other four by a good amount she doesn't see the floor.
Then here we go:

Brown 7.6 points per forty and 10.4 rebounds
Harris 8 points and 5.2 rebounds
McCoy 8.8 points and 9.8 rebounds
Rennie 4.4 points and 2.4 rebounds


These four players are getting 62 minutes per game and their totals are 11 points and 10 rebounds per game. So you can see the huge fall off in production when they are in there in scoring and rebounding. We would be a really solid team is they were doing half of what the big five are doing. These four players are going for .18 points per minute played and .16 rebounds per minute played so you can see what an enormous drop off we face when these players are in the game. They are at about one third of the production per minute as the big five.



Finally the points per attempted shot look like this after ten games:

Saunders 1.64 per shot attempt
Key 1.46
KK 1.37
Davis 1.18
Burrell 1.05
Massengill 1.03
Horston .95
Brown .95
Rennie .95
Harris .85
McCoy .72

 

[NeedOrange]

Did you crib that line from American Gigolo?

On a serious note, good points about other P-5 coaches having a big head start on Kellie. Makes you wonder which athletes were being recruited by the previous staff and if Tennessee has maintained contact.

Yes, that's part of Kellie's edge. Her staff was in contact with many players. The problem is how quickly she can build a bridge from what was to what she wants. I believe Kellie will not only recruit on skill, but mental/emotional maturity and desire to win.

 

[NeedOrange]

Like Courtney Banghart? Or maybe they should have hired a coach who had contact with these players for years...

Nope. They hired the right coach for the long haul. Some just need to give her a realistic chance before judging her. To expect her to have a top class for 2021 when 3 of the top 20 are already gone is a bit much. I am not saying she can't have a real good class for 2021 just pointing out that most of those players are 80-90 percent through the process. You never know though. The staff may have done a super job and Kellie just has to pick up the pieces.

 

[madtownvol]

Possibly for the same reason that Phil Fulmer has me blocked in his email....CHW's tenure

I came on VolNation in Feb of 2016,,,Having just coached a 16U team out of Morristown.

I went through proper channels and contacted Meme's HS coach and he referred me to Meme's mom. We emailed a couple of times and Meme ultimately considered me a good enough prospect to work with her over the summer. Meme approached CHW and asked for me. CHW denied her request and left me a phone message telling me she refused Meme.

I refused to give up on Meme because she had the fortitude to ask for me and the way the team and she was going, I put her above me and began to mentor her through emails. Meme began to flourish, even becoming the last-introduced for a span (Last player announced is trditionally the featured player). Meme and I went through her Jr and Sr year with me as a mentor. Over 150 emails over that span. I was careful not to tell Meme movements and gameplans, as that was her coach's responsibility and I would as a a coach myself, frown on anyone tell my players what to do in a game. .. I concentrated on motivating her with the right words and addressing her on-court mentality. Telling her things like "Don't be one dimensional (e,g,,a def stopper),,,play every aspect of the game...shoot, defend, dish, rebound...literally, dot EVERY stat line, as doing so puts you in part of every aspect of the game"...Meme was arguably the only athlete who truly progressed during CHW's tenure and there had to be a reason why.

Curious, coaches are not supposed to be involved in their players' voluntary training activities. The NCAA has very strict rules about the times when coaches are allowed to supervise athletes in the off season. Doing otherwise is a big no, no.

So, why did Meme even go to CHW for permission?

Since you were mentoring her "via email" was Meme ignoring her coaches refusal anyway so why not train her? Again, CHW does not have jurisdiction over her athlete's off season voluntary activities and her involvement would have been an NCAA violation. The NCAA rules are quite clear on this:

The definition of voluntary according to ncaa rules below:

Student-athlete is not required to report back to a coach or other athletics department staff member any information related to the activity

· The activity is initiated and requested solely by the student-athlete.

· The student-athlete's attendance and participation in the activity is not recorded for the purposes of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student athletes.
· The student-athlete is not subjected to penalty if he or she elects not to participate in the activity.

Informally, I am sure that some coaches may give some advice to their athletes on who would be a good trainer but to contact YOU via email creates a public record and a communcation chain of what would constitute an NCAA violation.

Are you sure that you want to keep posting that Holly committed an NCAA violation on this forum?

[Side question, how did Holly, when committing this NCAA violation, connect you as a coach who wanted to train Meme over the summer with your social media post. Do you actually identify as "Coach Jumper" in your face-to-face interactions?]

You are certainly entitled to your dreams and I have come to almost appreciate the sheer chuztpah of your self-promotion but your stories cross a line when you are in effect reporting an NCAA violation on the part of the LVs former coach.

 

[Nute Gunray]

Time to move on from this game not the first time we've lost at Stanford Parker lost there and then went on in the tourney to beat them by 16. This teams destiny this season is all determined whether they can find enough offense to compete against the better teams. Quite obvious that when we get to the bench we become terrible. I keep thinking Kellie will move away from them other than a few minutes for some players to get a rest break thus far that hasn't happened. Makes no sense for Harris, Rennie, and couple others to be getting close to 20 minutes a game. Makes a lot more sense for the top five to be getting 30 plus and some are below 20 or just barley above that for the season.

I like what you said Volfan2012, but Coach Kellie is not going to abandon her susbstitution scheme. She believes this scheme gives her fresh legs for defense and rebounding.

 

[djohnnyg]

It won't be long before people are gonna backtrack on Holly. I really did think she was the problem. I...and others may have been wrong. The issues with the LV might be much deeper. I don't know. Its still early...but this is kind of a shocking result. Any team can have a good 1st half or keep it close with a top team...but the 2nd half is where rubber meets the road. We see it all the time. I like Kellie though. I just hope she can recruit and sell the LV legacy...but u can expect a lot of posters questioning the "Holly is the problem" narrative if this continues to go south.

 

[madtownvol]

I like what you said Volfan2012, but Coach Kellie is not going to abandon her susbstitution scheme. She believes this scheme gives her fresh legs for defense and rebounding.

Nute, is that observation based on your own inferences or do you have more direct info? I am not asking you to reveal sources but more, how confident are you that Kellie will not alter her sub scheme. As you know, I don't think her current approach offers a winning formula, given her current mix of players.

 

[madtownvol]

It won't be long before people are gonna backtrack on Holly. I really did think she was the problem. I...and others may have been wrong. The issues with the LV might be much deeper. I don't know. Its still early...but this is kind of a shocking result. Any team can have a good 1st half or keep it close with a top team...but the 2nd half is where rubber meets the road. We see it all the time. I like Kellie though. I just hope she can recruit and sell the LV legacy...but u can expect a lot of posters questioning the "Holly is the problem" narrative if this continues to go south.

The deeper problem is not that hard to fathom. Two key players transferred and a key cog in the wheel is out with an ACL and two other key cogs (Horston and Key) are freshman.

Some of Holly's recruiting has not panned out into game changing players. KK and Kam are competent role players but they can't really fill the talent void created by the above.
Rae is still raw but I think she can be a really positive force by the end of the season (a lot hangs on her being able to make that in-season jump from potential to reliable contributor)

The LV PG is a sophomore who did not get that much experience last year because she played behind Evina. Her situation is much like Rae's.

On top of all of that, Kellie has not had much time to put her mark on the program and she came in late so that she is behind the gun on recruiting for next year's class.

Harper is a coach not a miracle worker nor is she the second coming of CPS despite the resemblances in demeanor. This process takes time.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I think I've been advised well by this board to just let this subject stop. If someone associated with the University or someone from the NCAA needs to contact me... I'm not hard to find.

 

[Nute Gunray]

Nute, is that observation based on your own inferences or do you have more direct info? I am not asking you to reveal sources but more, how confident are you that Kellie will not alter her sub scheme. As you know, I don't think her current approach offers a winning formula, given her current mix of players.

Madtownvol, I made this comment because I believe Coach Kellie wants to emulate her mentor, Pat Summitt. As you know, frequent player substitutions was one of Pat's traits. She used this to motivate her players. That is, play better if you want more playing time.

 

[KellywillwinNC]

coach summit used substitutions to yank out players who continually made mistakes, but kellie uses substitutions, in her words, to keep players "fresh". just look back at the start of the colorado st game where tenn jumped out to a 9-2 lead and kellie subbed two in, two out and colorado st proceded to cut the lead to just 2 points. kellie effectively killed the momentum by subbing.
kellie needs to find the best 5-6 players and ride em the entire game. if the players cant handle playing 40 min games, then they need a new conditioning coach..

 

[charlie_1]

Here's the game in case anyone missed it and wanted to watch

 

[NewDog]

BTW while a 27 point loss is unacceptable to me, too, it could be worse --- Missouri lost to PRINCETON by 35 the other day, and Duke lost to So. Carolina by 43 -- talk about falling programs!

I see you capitalized Princeton, but they really are a good team. 9-1 and soon to be in the top 25. They are coached by Carla Berube, former UConn player. She is an incredible coach.

 

[teacherdean]

It won't be long before people are gonna backtrack on Holly. I really did think she was the problem. I...and others may have been wrong. The issues with the LV might be much deeper. I don't know. Its still early...but this is kind of a shocking result. Any team can have a good 1st half or keep it close with a top team...but the 2nd half is where rubber meets the road. We see it all the time. I like Kellie though. I just hope she can recruit and sell the LV legacy...but u can expect a lot of posters questioning the "Holly is the problem" narrative if this continues to go south.

We have to realize that the major make up of our team, are Holly’s recruits. Holly had at least 28 5 stars and for one reason, or another, she wasn’t able to get the job done. Holly had as many 5 stars as any of the top five teams. She did a great job of recruiting, but a poor job coaching them where they were able to reach their full potential. KJH comes in with Holly’s recruits, Zay Green gets injured and is gone for the season. The program had sunk to a very low level. Fans were complaining and were asking for Holly’s head, including me. So she loses a large percentage of her scoring power. Her only real scorer is Davis. Her best players are 2 freshmen, 1 sophomore, a junior and a graduate transfer. She has four new starters, no point guard and right now, no real floor General.

To start with this is not a great condition to start with. I have been there and it is not a pleasant position to be in. It is even more difficult when you have to clean up a mess left by another coach. Add to this a fan base who are closely judging your every move. I like other posters wonder about the fresh leg thing. We do not have a very good bench, especially against top tier competition. I still believe that we need to wait a little bit longer and see if KJH can figure how to win with the cards she has been dealt.

 

[volman128]

I don’t think we’re off the map.

We've been off the map for years, but ok.

 

[Nute Gunray]

I see you capitalized Princeton, but they really are a good team. 9-1 and soon to be in the top 25. They are coached by Carla Berube, former UConn player. She is an incredible coach.

Carla Berube is a very good coach. She could turn the UT program around if Kellie does not. However, her lifestyle, like Courtney Banghart, is highly controversial.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Carla Berube is a very good coach. She could turn the UT program around if Kellie does not. However, her lifestyle, like Courtney Banghart, is highly controversial.

How about we stop this BS about replacing Coach K.

 

[Nute Gunray]

How about we stop this BS about replacing Coach K.

Coach Jumper, I said, "If Kellie does not". Seriously, she will be replaced if she does not turn the program around in a reasonable amount of time.