George Floyd Protest/Riots

[BP4Prez]

I'm sure most on here are okay with this kind of assault. So it gets mentioned once, then lost in the posts.

Maybe there are some out there but I don’t think this is near the general consensus.

 

[LouderVol]

View attachment 288739

This argument is based on class not race and sinks to the level of Joe Biden racism "poor kids are just as smart as white kids".

It assigns some sort of racial pretogative to failure or success. Which sounds pretty freaking racist to me.

It refuses to remove race, and look at actual equal circumstances. It always argues the what if of Tom Bradys white kids vs ghetto single parent black kids. Flip the script and let's look at Lebron James kids vs trailer park meth head white kids and you get the same result.

It looks at white kids failing out, going to jail, getting addicted to drugs, and appropriately lays the blame at their feet. You put a black person in that same situation and it's the system that failed, the system is racist. It all hinges on, what I see as incredibly racist, argument that a black person CANT make the same mistakes as a white person, that there is always something else at fault. Nominally a white person or the "system".

 

[Bigun]

For handling the work of a meter maid, yes.

My whole point was that specialization would better prepare them with handling the things you need armed police to do

What about when a traffic stop turns violent?

 

[n_huffhines]

This argument is based on class not race and sinks to the level of Joe Biden racism "poor kids are just as smart as white kids".

It assigns some sort of racial pretogative to failure or success. Which sounds pretty freaking racist to me.

It refuses to remove race, and look at actual equal circumstances. It always argues the what if of Tom Bradys white kids vs ghetto single parent black kids. Flip the script and let's look at Lebron James kids vs trailer park meth head white kids and you get the same result.

It looks at white kids failing out, going to jail, getting addicted to drugs, and appropriately lays the blame at their feet. You put a black person in that same situation and it's the system that failed, the system is racist. It all hinges on, what I see as incredibly racist, argument that a black person CANT make the same mistakes as a white person, that there is always something else at fault. Nominally a white person or the "system".

You're saying the cause is class and not racial. He's/we're saying the result is racial. It's two different statements that are not mutually exclusive.

Racism is holding black people down to some degree. There is no disputing this. Hell, racism is holding white people down to some degree. It's just a fact. So saying there is systemic racism is a way to describe what's happening without trying to make a statement about how much of the result is based on race and how much of it is based on class.

Acknowledging that there is systemic racism does not mean you absolve individuals (black or white) of their misdeeds. It does not mean a black can't make the same mistake as a white. Your closing statement makes no sense contrasted with the rest of the post. Your post is saying that there is a demographic factor involved. It's class. Not race. You're accusing me of saying to the individual "it's not your fault, you're black" (which I'm not), and if you believe I'm saying that, then what you're saying is "it's not your fault, you're poor."

And then you called my argument "incredibly racist", LOL

 

[LouderVol]

You're saying the cause is class and not racial. He's/we're saying the result is racial. It's two different statements that are not mutually exclusive.

Racism is holding black people down to some degree. There is no disputing this. Hell, racism is holding white people down to some degree. It's just a fact. So saying there is systemic racism is a way to describe what's happening without trying to make a statement about how much of it the result is based on race and how much of it is based on class.

Acknowledging that there is systemic racism does not mean you absolve individuals (black or white) of their misdeeds. It does not mean a black can't make the same mistake as a white. Your final sentence makes no sense contrasted with your first sentence. Your post is saying that there is something else at fault. It's class. Not race.

And then you called my argument "incredibly racist", LOL

To your last you are conflating two different arguments.
1. The systemic problem is class based, imo. (The actual subject matter)
2. the argument that the systemic problems are racial problems is racist, again imo. (The arguments made from the subject matter)
They are separate statements so there is no issue with me assigning different reasoning to them.

The cause and result are linked. You cant, imo, separate the two. The "racial" results ignore the non racial causes. They are shaping the cause to be racial because they think all results should be more or less equal regardless of cause. There is no logical reason to expect the results to be the same, or close to the same. None.

Until someone can actually argue why two people from two completely different walks of life should have similar results there is no grounds to assume the different results are racial.

 

[n_huffhines]

To your last you are conflating two different arguments.
1. The systemic problem is class based, imo. (The actual subject matter)
2. the argument that the systemic problems are racial problems is racist, again imo. (The arguments made from the subject matter)
They are separate statements so there is no issue with me assigning different reasoning to them.

The cause and result are linked. You cant, imo, separate the two. The "racial" results ignore the non racial causes. They are shaping the cause to be racial because they think all results should be more or less equal regardless of cause. There is no logical reason to expect the results to be the same, or close to the same. None.

Until someone can actually argue why two people from two completely different walks of life should have similar results there is no grounds to assume the different results are racial.

Who is saying we should expect the results to be the same? How about just trying to lessen the inequalities created by the government?

If you're poor/black and 5x as likely to catch a stray bullet because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're 5x more likely to get harassed by the police because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're innocent and not given a speedy trial because you don't have good representation and so you take a plea deal, that's an inequitable result.

These things add up, and they stack the deck against blacks/poor at large. On an individual level, people must take ownership over their lives, but I'm not trying to mentor people. I'm trying to fix government.

 

[LouderVol]

Who is saying we should expect the results to be the same? How about just trying to lessen the inequalities created by the government?

If you're poor/black and 5x as likely to catch a stray bullet because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're 5x more likely to get harassed by the police because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're not given a speedy trial because you don't have good representation and the system is stacked against you, that's an inequitable result.

These things add up, and they stack the deck against blacks/poor at large. On an individual level, people must take ownership over their lives, but I'm not trying to mentor people. I'm trying to fix government.

The tweet you quoted made the argument that we should expect the same results even without individual racists.

Your entire argument boils down to what I am saying. Class vs racism.

Drug use is tied to violence. Go look at Portgual where it's all legal. There is still a drastic uptick in violent crime surrounding drugs vs the general population. I dont know if its 5 times but it's enough to be stastically relevant.

Even here in the US where it is a crime it doesnt happen in a vacuum. A black person walking down a street is not 5x more likely to be shot than their white counterpart. At least by the cops. A person walking around a rough neirghborhood might be 5x as likely to be shot than someone walking down mainstreet but again that isnt racial. We can make that point either by changing the race or the circumstance to see what we get.
Put the white person in the rough area (race), and they are probably higher up the risk factor. Or the black person in a nice area and their risk goes down.

Your justice system argument is again tied to class. If you can hire an expensive attorney your chances go up. Regardless of race. Stuck with a public defendant and your chances go down, regardless of race. There is no inherent non-monetary(class) force out there saying lawyers have to represent minorities to a lesser extent. It's simply a money issue which hits poor whites like it does poor blacks.

Removing the war on drugs doesnt fix the inherent issue. People will still be poor, and thus more at risk, living in bad areas, more at risk, and no less likely to use drugs, more at risk. All you are doing is shifting the numbers away one risk category to another.

And I am against the war on drugs. They should all be legal. But i dont think the cops represent a racially targeted 5x risk factor in regards to drugs to claim systemic racism.

If you want to argue the dangers from the government, government housing, or funded housing, is going to be right there with the war on drugs. Do we stop providing housing because it puts minorities at a higher risk? Should we look at welfare usage and its ties to racism? We can go down the list, pretty much all have been discussed in this board as issues. Marriage, loans, education.

They are issues. Not arguing that. I am just not seeing an objective argument to say they racial problems specifically.

 

[BreatheUT]

This argument is based on class not race and sinks to the level of Joe Biden racism "poor kids are just as smart as white kids".

It assigns some sort of racial pretogative to failure or success. Which sounds pretty freaking racist to me.

It refuses to remove race, and look at actual equal circumstances. It always argues the what if of Tom Bradys white kids vs ghetto single parent black kids. Flip the script and let's look at Lebron James kids vs trailer park meth head white kids and you get the same result.

It looks at white kids failing out, going to jail, getting addicted to drugs, and appropriately lays the blame at their feet. You put a black person in that same situation and it's the system that failed, the system is racist. It all hinges on, what I see as incredibly racist, argument that a black person CANT make the same mistakes as a white person, that there is always something else at fault. Nominally a white person or the "system".

You just make too much sense for some to not see the racist overtones to the very issue they are attempting to speak about. Blindness is a crippling condition but it doesn't have to be debilitating.

 

[peaygolf]

The "Great Emancipator"................Think again.

Tear down ALL Lincoln statues .......



Abraham Lincoln’s thoughts and quotes


“will say then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch, as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man.”







* Lincoln publicly referred to blacks by the most offensive racial slur. In one speech, Lincoln said he opposed the expansion of slavery into the territories because he didn't want the West "to become an asylum for slavery and n--s"

* Lincoln was, in the words of one friend, "especially fond of Negro minstrel shows," attending blackface performances in Chicago and Washington. At an 1860 performance of Rumsey and Newcomb's Minstrels, Lincoln "clapped his great hands, demanding an encore, louder than anyone" when the minstrels performed "Dixie." Lincoln was also fond of what he called "darky" jokes, Bennett documents.

* Lincoln envisioned and advocated an all-white West, declaring in Alton, Ill., in 1858 that he was "in favor of our new territories being in such a condition that white men may find a home ... as an outlet for free white people everywhere, the world over."

* Lincoln supported his home state's law, passed in 1853, forbidding blacks to move to Illinois. The Illinois Constitution, adopted in 1848, called for laws to "effectually prohibit free persons of color from immigrating to and settling in this state."

* Lincoln blamed blacks for the Civil War. "But for your race among us there could not be a war," he said, "although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another."

* Lincoln claimed that Mexicans "are most decidedly a race of mongrels. I understand that there is not more than one person there out of eight who is pure white."

Repeatedly during the course of his career, Lincoln urged that American blacks be sent to Africa or elsewhere. In 1854, he declared his "first impulse would be to free all the slaves and send them to Liberia -- to their own native land." In 1860, he called for the "emancipation and deportation" of slaves.

 

[n_huffhines]

The tweet you quoted made the argument that we should expect the same results even without individual racists.

Your entire argument boils down to what I am saying. Class vs racism.

Drug use is tied to violence. Go look at Portgual where it's all legal. There is still a drastic uptick in violent crime surrounding drugs vs the general population. I dont know if its 5 times but it's enough to be stastically relevant.

Even here in the US where it is a crime it doesnt happen in a vacuum. A black person walking down a street is not 5x more likely to be shot than their white counterpart. At least by the cops. A person walking around a rough neirghborhood might be 5x as likely to be shot than someone walking down mainstreet but again that isnt racial. We can make that point either by changing the race or the circumstance to see what we get.
Put the white person in the rough area (race), and they are probably higher up the risk factor. Or the black person in a nice area and their risk goes down.

Your justice system argument is again tied to class. If you can hire an expensive attorney your chances go up. Regardless of race. Stuck with a public defendant and your chances go down, regardless of race. There is no inherent non-monetary(class) force out there saying lawyers have to represent minorities to a lesser extent. It's simply a money issue which hits poor whites like it does poor blacks.

Removing the war on drugs doesnt fix the inherent issue. People will still be poor, and thus more at risk, living in bad areas, more at risk, and no less likely to use drugs, more at risk. All you are doing is shifting the numbers away one risk category to another.

And I am against the war on drugs. They should all be legal. But i dont think the cops represent a racially targeted 5x risk factor in regards to drugs to claim systemic racism.

If you want to argue the dangers from the government, government housing, or funded housing, is going to be right there with the war on drugs. Do we stop providing housing because it puts minorities at a higher risk? Should we look at welfare usage and its ties to racism? We can go down the list, pretty much all have been discussed in this board as issues. Marriage, loans, education.

They are issues. Not arguing that. I am just not seeing an objective argument to say they racial problems specifically.

No it didn't. I'll skip the rest. You're on one right now and this is a waste of time

 

[FLVOL_79]

Nice to see real Americans standing up to these bullsh!t protests

 

[Weezer]

I'm sure most on here are okay with this kind of assault. So it gets mentioned once, then lost in the posts.

Seems like a double edged comment. On one hand, you seem to be suggesting people on the right don't care about a gay man being beat up. Of course, on the other hand, you've had people on the left defend the violence these protests have brought. So I'm not sure which side you're actively criticizing? Both? I'd like to believe no one supports an innocent man getting beat down no matter his sexuality. And his sexuality, as far as I can tell, wasn't even in play here. From what I read, he wasn't beat up for being gay. He was beat up for filming. I'm not sure why his sexuality even needed to be mentioned since it seemed to play no part in the story?

 

[C-south]

Seems like a double edged comment. On one hand, you seem to be suggesting people on the right don't care about a gay man being beat up. Of course, on the other hand, you've had people on the left defend the violence these protests have brought. So I'm not sure which side you're actively criticizing? Both? I'd like to believe no one supports an innocent man getting beat down no matter his sexuality. And his sexuality, as far as I can tell, wasn't even in play here. From what I read, he wasn't beat up for being gay. He was beat up for filming. I'm not sure why his sexuality even needed to be mentioned since it seemed to play no part in the story?

It’s what they do. Every one of them want to be a victim of something other than their own stupidity or actions.

 

[DynaLo]

The Wisconsin Senator is being made fun of for the irony of his shocked outrage of getting attacked by the very folks he sides with. Just like the Mayor of Olympia joined the afternoon protests and is getting ridiculed over her outrage and calling them domestic terrorists after they vandalized her house later that day. The majority of folks don’t care who the Senator sleeps with.

 

[Weezer]

It’s what they do. Every one of them want to be a victim of something other than their own stupidity or actions.

Not really clear as to your point, but the Wisconsin senator was a victim. He didn't deserve to be beaten. I don't think his actions were stupid, and certainly didn't rise to the level of getting an ass whoopin'. I just don't see how his being gay played a part in it.

 

[C-south]

Not really clear as to your point, but the Wisconsin senator was a victim. He didn't deserve to be beaten. I don't think his actions were stupid, and certainly didn't rise to the level of getting an ass whoopin'. I just don't see how his being gay played a part in it.

I’m sure he didn’t deserve it and I’m sure that it wasn’t because he was gay but since he is that’s what the spin will be

 

[Chris4Vols22]

You seem to only call out one side! Typical for a RACIST!!!

That definitely goes both ways in this forum. Like word for word.

 

[CagleMtnVol]

 

[Rickyvol77]

Who is saying we should expect the results to be the same? How about just trying to lessen the inequalities created by the government?

If you're poor/black and 5x as likely to catch a stray bullet because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're 5x more likely to get harassed by the police because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're innocent and not given a speedy trial because you don't have good representation and so you take a plea deal, that's an inequitable result.

These things add up, and they stack the deck against blacks/poor at large. On an individual level, people must take ownership over their lives, but I'm not trying to mentor people. I'm trying to fix government.

If only the government could control these neighborhoods and stop forcing them to sell drugs and commit violent crimes and be overrun with gangs, then it would be fair, right?

 

[Rickyvol77]

The "Great Emancipator"................Think again.

Tear down ALL Lincoln statues .......



Abraham Lincoln’s thoughts and quotes


“will say then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch, as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man.”







* Lincoln publicly referred to blacks by the most offensive racial slur. In one speech, Lincoln said he opposed the expansion of slavery into the territories because he didn't want the West "to become an asylum for slavery and n--s"

* Lincoln was, in the words of one friend, "especially fond of Negro minstrel shows," attending blackface performances in Chicago and Washington. At an 1860 performance of Rumsey and Newcomb's Minstrels, Lincoln "clapped his great hands, demanding an encore, louder than anyone" when the minstrels performed "Dixie." Lincoln was also fond of what he called "darky" jokes, Bennett documents.

* Lincoln envisioned and advocated an all-white West, declaring in Alton, Ill., in 1858 that he was "in favor of our new territories being in such a condition that white men may find a home ... as an outlet for free white people everywhere, the world over."

* Lincoln supported his home state's law, passed in 1853, forbidding blacks to move to Illinois. The Illinois Constitution, adopted in 1848, called for laws to "effectually prohibit free persons of color from immigrating to and settling in this state."

* Lincoln blamed blacks for the Civil War. "But for your race among us there could not be a war," he said, "although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or another."

* Lincoln claimed that Mexicans "are most decidedly a race of mongrels. I understand that there is not more than one person there out of eight who is pure white."

Repeatedly during the course of his career, Lincoln urged that American blacks be sent to Africa or elsewhere. In 1854, he declared his "first impulse would be to free all the slaves and send them to Liberia -- to their own native land." In 1860, he called for the "emancipation and deportation" of slaves.

I am curious what America would be like today if Lincoln had succeeded and deported all former slaves to Liberia. Interesting alternate dimension discussion

 

[volinsd]

Who is saying we should expect the results to be the same? How about just trying to lessen the inequalities created by the government?

If you're poor/black and 5x as likely to catch a stray bullet because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're 5x more likely to get harassed by the police because the war on drugs is nasty in your neighborhood, that's an inequitable result created by government. If you're innocent and not given a speedy trial because you don't have good representation and so you take a plea deal, that's an inequitable result.

These things add up, and they stack the deck against blacks/poor at large. On an individual level, people must take ownership over their lives, but I'm not trying to mentor people. I'm trying to fix government.

Its almost as if you are saying the war on drugs is bad in neighborhoods and causing these issues. Maybe people who are innocent should put the police onto who the perps are?

But you know, snitches get stitches I guess.

Seems to me those neighborhoods either partake themselves or dont really see it as an issue.

 

[n_huffhines]

Its almost as if you are saying the war on drugs is bad in neighborhoods and causing these issues. Maybe people who are innocent should put the police onto who the perps are?

But you know, snitches get stitches I guess.

Seems to me those neighborhoods either partake themselves or dont really see it as an issue.

Wow, this is going for most ignorant post of the year.

You're simultaneously arguing that people don't talk to police because they are afraid, but then you also say they don't see it as an issue. Are they all afraid or all apathetic? Makes no sense.

 

[Orange_Vol1321]

Wow, that guys life definitely don't matter.

 

[Septic]

What about when a traffic stop turns violent?

The cops should just stop measuring violent traffic stops, problem solved.

 

[DynaLo]

Seriously, can we just go ahead and start shooting these worthless piece of shite m-fers in self defense.
And don’t say it’s only fireworks cause that garbage isn’t going to pass the smell test. Search the web and take a look at the bodily harm these things can cause. This terrorizing can kill someone with a heart condition.