Good article on the climate change controversy

#1

IPorange

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#1
#2
#2
There is no such animal as the title suggests might exist.
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#3
#3
Really? Maybe I just see the article differently.

I feel like it shows that a lot of the "controversy" is sparked off by faulty conclusions given by the media, without understanding the preliminary or cursory nature of most studies.

How did you see the article?
 
#5
#5
Really? Maybe I just see the article differently.

I feel like it shows that a lot of the "controversy" is sparked off by faulty conclusions given by the media, without understanding the preliminary or cursory nature of most studies.

How did you see the article?
I was kidding about a "good" article on climate change. I don't believe there is a good article on any level of that topic.
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#6
#6
I feel like the theory of evolution suffers from similar problems with misinformation, now that I think about it.
 
#8
#8
Question:

Near the center of Great Erg of Bilma, (one might call this the heart of the Great Sahara Desert), there are the footprints of elephants, hippos and girfaffs around the edge of a dried up lake, how did this climate change come about???

Hint, we know humans had nothing to do with it unless maybe the fires of cave dwelling neanderthals on the Iberian penensula drifted accross the Mediteranian and turned north Africa into a hot house.

Follow the money, cap and trade will increase the coffers of those who already have fortunes beyond measure but the common man will be pushed one (or more) step(s) backwards toward serfdom.

It's been a long long time since I've had the first good thing to say about any Democrat (or few Republicans for that matter) but I have to say my rep voted against the C&T bill.

Not that that is saying anything good about him, my cynical attitude about politics and politicians leads me to believe if they needed his vote they would have gotten it, it's just that he knew his constituency was solidly against it.
 
#9
#9
3 Questions GS:

1) Which district are you in?

2) Not that this is relevant to the larger AGW discussion, but where was the area that is not the Sahara dessert at the time of the neanderthals? My guess is not where it is today. That isn't even global climate changing...that is just continents picking up and moving.

3) The fact that climate changes without human influence is well established. In general, the time line for these changes is very long (tens of thousands of years) with adaptation coming along the way. Why is the fact that natural climate variations exist some how proof that man-made climate influences cannot exist?
 
#10
#10
Come on now, the Earth carved out England from mainland Europe.... what has man done to to compare to that? (Small Scale)
 
#11
#11
Come on now, the Earth carved out England from mainland Europe.... what has man done to to compare to that? (Small Scale)

The earth has also moved parts of east china that were once connected to the Appalachian mountains half-way around the globe. What has man done to compare to that?

I don't understand how the raw power of the earth somehow indicates that man cannot have a negative effect on her climate....even an appreciable negative effect.
 
#14
#14
Question:

Near the center of Great Erg of Bilma, (one might call this the heart of the Great Sahara Desert), there are the footprints of elephants, hippos and girfaffs around the edge of a dried up lake, how did this climate change come about???

Hint, we know humans had nothing to do with it unless maybe the fires of cave dwelling neanderthals on the Iberian penensula drifted accross the Mediteranian and turned north Africa into a hot house.

Follow the money, cap and trade will increase the coffers of those who already have fortunes beyond measure but the common man will be pushed one (or more) step(s) backwards toward serfdom.

It's been a long long time since I've had the first good thing to say about any Democrat (or few Republicans for that matter) but I have to say my rep voted against the C&T bill.

Not that that is saying anything good about him, my cynical attitude about politics and politicians leads me to believe if they needed his vote they would have gotten it, it's just that he knew his constituency was solidly against it.

Good to see you are alive and well, gs. We were wondering if you were ok. There's a long thread about it somewhere.

The climate change in what is now the Sahara was due to the ending of the previous ice age, and the monsoonal effect North Africa used to enjoy. No, humans had nothing to do with it. I am not sure how citing past nonhuman driven climate change counters human driven climate change...

I am not a fan of cap and trade. I fail to see how making government wealthy and the private sector more stressed is a net positive. I won't defend it.


And for the record, the continents have hardly moved at all since the time of neanderthals. Humans are a flash in the pan in geologic time, which is more reason why pointing to past climate change as proof that current climate change can't be human influenced is kind of a straw man.
 
#15
#15
Come on now, the Earth carved out England from mainland Europe.... what has man done to to compare to that? (Small Scale)

Split an atom? Or do you mean in the same vein? Then I would point to the Suez and Panama canals. Or the ancient chinese waterways that extended hundreds of miles inland, and were completely engineered.

But I fail to see the point. It's like saying humans can't heat a house in the winter, because we haven't done anything compared to the Sun.
 
#16
#16
My opinion: While I think that man-made climate change is possible, and maybe even ongoing, I don't think there's an appreciable difference in temperature as of this point. We only have around 125-135 years of hard temperature and weather data to really find where our climate is at this point, compared to all of the 6 billion years on Earth.

Errors are going to be made and projections are either going to be off one way or the other. That's why I don't go nuts over this like most mainstream climatologists and some meteorologists. Not to mention all the guys who have '79 Volvos and have hemp for car seats.

Personally, I think all the climate change nuts like Al Gore and Heidi Cullen marginalize themselves to an extent by making rash statements. Cullen has outdone herself here, claiming that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the theory of man-made climate change should have their American Meteorological Society seal of approval taken away.
 
#17
#17
Split an atom? Or do you mean in the same vein? Then I would point to the Suez and Panama canals. Or the ancient chinese waterways that extended hundreds of miles inland, and were completely engineered.

But I fail to see the point. It's like saying humans can't heat a house in the winter, because we haven't done anything compared to the Sun.

:blink:
 
#19
#19
My opinion: While I think that man-made climate change is possible, and maybe even ongoing, I don't think there's an appreciable difference in temperature as of this point. We only have around 125-135 years of hard temperature and weather data to really find where our climate is at this point, compared to all of the 6 billion years on Earth.

Errors are going to be made and projections are either going to be off one way or the other. That's why I don't go nuts over this like most mainstream climatologists and some meteorologists. Not to mention all the guys who have '79 Volvos and have hemp for car seats.

Personally, I think all the climate change nuts like Al Gore and Heidi Cullen marginalize themselves to an extent by making rash statements. Cullen has outdone herself here, claiming that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the theory of man-made climate change should have their American Meteorological Society seal of approval taken away.

So if the record is so short and errored, and the projections are all off, how do you know that there is no "appreciable difference" in temperature?

And what do you mean by "appreciable?"
 
#20
#20
I feel like the theory of evolution suffers from similar problems with misinformation, now that I think about it.

What everyone should know about Darwin.

A short review and comments.

3 Questions GS:

1) Which district are you in?

2) Not that this is relevant to the larger AGW discussion, but where was the area that is not the Sahara dessert at the time of the neanderthals? My guess is not where it is today. That isn't even global climate changing...that is just continents picking up and moving.

3) The fact that climate changes without human influence is well established. In general, the time line for these changes is very long (tens of thousands of years) with adaptation coming along the way. Why is the fact that natural climate variations exist some how proof that man-made climate influences cannot exist?

1. Lincoln Davis (District 4?), the district is a huge u shaped area gerrymandered by the Democrats to split up pockets of Republican leaning areas.

2. There probably was no Sahara desert at some point in history, most of North Africa was fertile plains broken by mountain ranges, there were many many lakes in that region. Ice ages tend to create deserts. At some point in history a very arid part of Arizona was woodlands, hence the petrified forest.

Imo global cooling is one heck of a lot more dangerous and likely to occur than any sort of catastropic global warming, after all the Earth has been warmer than it is now and conditions for human prosperity were as a matter of fact better than our present situation.

3. I don't think anyone says human activity has no effect on the weather, but the lengths some go of dire predictions of the future are a bit overdone and the worst part is the solutions they come up with to solve the so-called problem and the urgency with which they want to act.

The earth has also moved parts of east china that were once connected to the Appalachian mountains half-way around the globe. What has man done to compare to that?

I don't understand how the raw power of the earth somehow indicates that man cannot have a negative effect on her climate....even an appreciable negative effect.

But can we control the weather with political/economic measures??
 
#21
#21
GS, when you say the Earth was warmer than it is now and "better for human prosperity," are you speaking of something like the Medieval Warm Period, or the warm period during the Classical age, or something beyond the Holocene?
 
#22
#22
Good to see you are alive and well, gs. We were wondering if you were ok. There's a long thread about it somewhere.

The climate change in what is now the Sahara was due to the ending of the previous ice age, and the monsoonal effect North Africa used to enjoy. No, humans had nothing to do with it. I am not sure how citing past nonhuman driven climate change counters human driven climate change...

I am not a fan of cap and trade. I fail to see how making government wealthy and the private sector more stressed is a net positive. I won't defend it.


And for the record, the continents have hardly moved at all since the time of neanderthals. Humans are a flash in the pan in geologic time, which is more reason why pointing to past climate change as proof that current climate change can't be human influenced is kind of a straw man.

Thanks for the nice thoughts from everyone (or most everyone). :hi:

I not saying that proof of nonhuman influenced climate change is proof that human activity has no effect on climate.

I am saying that Earth's climate undergoes huge changes without human activity and we certainly aren't sure what triggers those changes.

Your concept of how the Sahara was formed could be incorrect. (are you sure the Sahara enjoyed monsoons during the last ice age?) I'm not sure but I do remember about twenty years ago the high pressure center that annually migrates up from the equator and settles off the west coast of northern Africa, insuring that it will get little if any summer rain, (for as yet unknown reasons) went further north and settled off the west coast of Europe, bringing on a severe drought.

This did quite a bit to sell gw in Europe. That fact got very little coverage here in America but it was said that Europe's resevoirs were so depleted that it would take ten years of normal rainfall to catch up.

Bear in mind that huge changes can happen is a period as short as twenty or so years, as in the case of ice ages that last hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of years or more.

More on your reference to Darwin:

The Darwin Myth; The Life and Lies of Charles Darwin.

Charles Darwin and Al Gore have a lot in common.

Darwin wasn't a brilliant man, he was a dullard who couldn't pass medical school.

Darwin didn't examine evidence and come up with a theory, he took a theory and manipulated the evidence to support the theory.
 
#23
#23
And for the record, the continents have hardly moved at all since the time of neanderthals. Humans are a flash in the pan in geologic time, which is more reason why pointing to past climate change as proof that current climate change can't be human influenced is kind of a straw man.

Interesting, I figured that they had probably moved at least one the scale of miles...but then again, i didn't bother to go back and see when the neanderthals were around. A LONG time ago isn't good enough or something? :p

You're the physical geography guy here...so I yield to you on continental motion, sir...
 
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#24
#24
1. Lincoln Davis (District 4?), the district is a huge u shaped area gerrymandered by the Democrats to split up pockets of Republican leaning areas.

Yeah, that's District 4. I know from personal experience that Lincoln Davis is not a big fan of any discussion that puts climate change above national/energy security when it comes to setting energy policy and regulations. Is it possible that he could have been strongarmed into voting for the bill had they needed his vote? I would say the answer to that is somewhere between perhaps and probably. However, he is quite adamant about not taking focus away from energy security (and primarily focusing on nuclear energy) by confusing the debate with climate change discussions (trust me...I ran head-on into that one). He is also quite interested in coal to liquids technologies.
 
#25
#25
GS, when you say the Earth was warmer than it is now and "better for human prosperity," are you speaking of something like the Medieval Warm Period, or the warm period during the Classical age, or something beyond the Holocene?

When the Vikings had vinyards in Greenland, we really don't know too much beyond the Holocene but theoretically it may have been idylic, as in the Garden of Eden or Amagadaveda if you prefer. (I had a friend who was in the studio when that was recorded by Iron Butterfly, not sure if he was the producer of record, he was a pretty slippery character.) :angel:

"To God one day can be as a thousand years and a thousand years can be as one day."

Other thoughts on this topic.

Carbon credit markets in Europe were a miserable failure, Cap and Trade will make the rich richer and the poor poorer and do not much to change climate, one way or the other. (except that those on the bottom end of the scale will have their way paid by those in the middle.)

When you say 'make the government wealthier and the private sector less prominate', you have the right idea but the wrong facts.

The government, to which the masses must support, or else, only goes deeper in debt to the top end of the private sector, namely the central bank, ie, the federal reserve which is privately owned.

Other industry and privately owned property becomes more and more influenced by government, ie 'owned'.

So what we have is creeping fascism, (or the other side of the same coin, communism or socialism). That is more and more power handed to the rulers in one way or another.

If you buy the whole global warming theory and many do, possibly because they are constantly brainwashed by the media, if you actually do the math you can still only come to the conclussion that human activity is very negligible unless you seize on the trigger theory, in that our small input might be the trigger that would bring about catastropic change.

Well now, how about sunspots or the lack thereof?? How about undersea volcanic activity?? (I'm firmly convinced that an undersea rift in the arctic ocean floor emitting hot gases there has far more to do with less sea ice and melting glaciers than human activity might have ever thought about.)

Then there is El Nino and La Nina which we can observe to affect climate, not only in North America but worldwide, and what do we know about what causes them???

I'd venture to say that SUV emississions in California have zero effects but does my theory have anything to do with California's stupid reactionary, paranoid ecological policies (that the rest of America is expected to pay for.?)
 

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