Have you ever thought about....

#26
#26
That could be true if it were actually thought provoking.

It is if you are willing to question things and not just believe everything you've ever been told. If even you don't agree with it, just ignoring his point and calling him a moron adds nothing to the discussion.
 
#27
#27
I walk through a cemetary at the church where my son's cub scout pack meets every week. I see lots of head stones for infants and young children. I wonder what could have been from these loved and wanted children far more than I ever wonder about an aborted fetus that wasn't wanted by the mother.
 
#28
#28
Sometimes I wonder how many women I could have impregnated and just how wonderful those potential persons would be....

The point is, it is none of your business, and thank God you have no say in what other people must do.

Oh but you are wrong on that point. Our tax dollars go towards funding abortion my friend.

Isn't one of the fundamentals of Christianity being your brothers keeper?

The point is it is not that cut and dry. If these people want to have abortions I will not stand in their way, as long as they foot the bill. If my dollars help pay for it then I most certainly have some interest in what is done with my money.
 
#29
#29
Guys, I know we are in the outer regions of the board here, but lets try to stick to the forum rules regarding name calling.
 
#30
#30
It is if you are willing to question things and not just believe everything you've ever been told. If even you don't agree with it, just ignoring his point and calling him a moron adds nothing to the discussion.

I have questioned plenty in my life thanks.
 
#31
#31
Guys, I know we are in the outer regions of the board here, but lets try to stick to the forum rules regarding name calling.

Whatever cotton headed ninny muggins
 

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#32
#32
The point is this....bad things happen that we have no control over. If your God really does exist then this happens for one of two reasons...either he can't stop it, or he doesn't care to. In either case he is impotent or cruel. You can make token references to free will and other logical gymnastics or ethical incoherencies, but this is what it boils down to. Miscarriages happen and we can do nothing about it. God either can't stop it, or chooses not to. Only somebody blinded by the goggles of faith can't see the resulting hypocrisy of him holding us accountable for the same thing.

My personal beliefs work like this...... God set everything in motion and we live under the various laws he created (nature, physics, etc.). He has the power to do anything but does not interfere in our lives except in cases where he uses a person, such as those he contacted or inspired in the Bible. He lets us live freely and does not interfere.

I have heard this question many times... If there is a God why does he let so many bad things happen to people? I will not pretend that I have information unavailable to the rest but my answer has always been that he gave us the gift of free will. We can choose to do good bad or indifferent. This gift is made even more precious when you understand that with this gift of free will he also created good and bad, hate and love. You cannot have good without having bad, just as you could not have hate without love. If he let only what he wanted to come into being then we would all be mindless robot like beings, not free thinkers with the extremes of good and evil.
 
#33
#33
I was thinking about the number of abortions worldwide that have been made. Something that kind of disturbs me is what those little fellers were going to be? I am against it personally, but what if the baby who would have been the one to cure cancer was aborted? how many musicians, scientists, actors, educators, judges, presidents??? does anyone know the number that have been made worldwide?

the first one was too many
 
#34
#34
I have questioned plenty in my life thanks.

Have you every questioned the bible or God's existence and power? If you have, then the idea that God knows us before we are born and hates abortion, but allows 20% of babies to die due to miscarriages while controlling all the world is an interesting point. You may not agree with it, which is fine, but you see his point.
 
#35
#35
My personal beliefs work like this...... God set everything in motion and we live under the various laws he created (nature, physics, etc.). He has the power to do anything but does not interfere in our lives except in cases where he uses a person, such as those he contacted or inspired in the Bible. He lets us live freely and does not interfere.

I have heard this question many times... If there is a God why does he let so many bad things happen to people? I will not pretend that I have information unavailable to the rest but my answer has always been that he gave us the gift of free will. We can choose to do good bad or indifferent. This gift is made even more precious when you understand that with this gift of free will he also created good and bad, hate and love. You cannot have good without having bad, just as you could not have hate without love. If he let only what he wanted to come into being then we would all be mindless robot like beings, not free thinkers with the extremes of good and evil.

:good!:

A logical response to his point. I may not agree with your view, but it makes sense, and it is your view. Much more constructive than namecalling.
 
#36
#36
Have you every questioned the bible or God's existence and power? If you have, then the idea that God knows us before we are born and hates abortion, but allows 20% of babies to die due to miscarriages while controlling all the world is an interesting point. You may not agree with it, which is fine, but you see his point.

Actually the Bible says to test all things.

God hates murder, but are we all supposed to never die? The world would be a little crowded if no person or animal ever died.

It's not an interesting point because there is no point.
 
#37
#37
Actually the Bible says to test all things.

God hates murder, but are we all supposed to never die? The world would be a little crowded if no person or animal ever died.

It's not an interesting point because there is no point.

God hates murder? He didn't seem to have a problem with it at Sodom and Gomorra, or sending the Angel of Death to kill all the first-borns, if you believe those stories. I hate the bible.
 
#38
#38
God hates murder? He didn't seem to have a problem with it at Sodom and Gomorra, or sending the Angel of Death to kill all the first-borns, if you believe those stories. I hate the bible.

Congrats, enjoy the after life.
 
#42
#42
i plan to repent on my deathbed. from a cost/benefit analysis it's a no brainer compared to going to church every sunday.
 
#43
#43
My personal beliefs work like this...... God set everything in motion and we live under the various laws he created (nature, physics, etc.). He has the power to do anything but does not interfere in our lives except in cases where he uses a person, such as those he contacted or inspired in the Bible. He lets us live freely and does not interfere.

I have heard this question many times... If there is a God why does he let so many bad things happen to people? I will not pretend that I have information unavailable to the rest but my answer has always been that he gave us the gift of free will. We can choose to do good bad or indifferent. This gift is made even more precious when you understand that with this gift of free will he also created good and bad, hate and love. You cannot have good without having bad, just as you could not have hate without love. If he let only what he wanted to come into being then we would all be mindless robot like beings, not free thinkers with the extremes of good and evil.

This is probably the best of all defenses as to why God lets bad things happen. A world without free will would be robotic and in order for our relations with our Creator to be morally meaningful, we must have the freedom freely to grow and contract in that relationship.

I understand that, but I still think even it is flawed. I am sure you would agree that Judas’s evil made possible the good of Jesus’s crucifixion? The problem with the logic is that from here it is but a step to the proposition that Hitler’s evil allowed various righteous gentiles to act righteously, and from here it is but a step to the proposition that Hitler’s evil is itself a good thing because it allowed Hitler himself the exercise of free will...and it happened by working within the rules set in motion by God in the first place.

The more interesting question is why didn't God create the rules so that our free will would be constituted to lower forms of evil? What if the worst of society only consisted of bullies, liars, corrupt politicians, stealers of apples and pears and knowledge, defilers of Eden--but no Hitlers, no Stalins, no murderers, no child-killers? It seems to me this would be within the power of God, and we would still have our cherished free will without the worst that society has ever brought forth. If God had made such a world, we would never have had any experience of our more murderous freedoms, and nobody would have missed them. Such a world would not be without pain and suffering....and death would still have its sting, but suffering would be much less than what it is now.

I see your point, but by your explanation, the laws he set in motion are at the very least flawed, and at worst a horrible way to treat his "creation". It is not a gift, it is a game played in which God set the rules for a possible string of horrible acts in which he can alleviate all responsiblity to intercede. And at the same time, like you said, break the flawed rules he created and intervene when he sees fit. I don't buy it, not by a supposedly concurrently omnipotent and omnibenelovent being.

It is bad logic heaped upon bad ethics.
 
#44
#44
Congrats, enjoy the after life.
Hey JZ..can you prove the bible is legit...or is it just your belief system.I think that it's just a book written in the past so people had something to believe in...I feel the same for the Koran and all other religious scripture.
 
#45
#45
This is probably the best of all defenses as to why God lets bad things happen. A world without free will would be robotic and in order for our relations with our Creator to be morally meaningful, we must have the freedom freely to grow and contract in that relationship.

I understand that, but I still think even it is flawed. I am sure you would agree that Judas’s evil made possible the good of Jesus’s crucifixion? The problem with the logic is that from here it is but a step to the proposition that Hitler’s evil allowed various righteous gentiles to act righteously, and from here it is but a step to the proposition that Hitler’s evil is itself a good thing because it allowed Hitler himself the exercise of free will...and it happened by working within the rules set in motion by God in the first place.

The more interesting question is why didn't God create the rules so that our free will would be constituted to lower forms of evil? What if the worst of society only consisted of bullies, liars, corrupt politicians, stealers of apples and pears and knowledge, defilers of Eden--but no Hitlers, no Stalins, no murderers, no child-killers? It seems to me this would be within the power of God, and we would still have our cherished free will without the worst that society has ever brought forth. If God had made such a world, we would never have had any experience of our more murderous freedoms, and nobody would have missed them. Such a world would not be without pain and suffering....and death would still have its sting, but suffering would be much less than what it is now.

I see your point, but by your explanation, the laws he set in motion are at the very least flawed, and at worst a horrible way to treat his "creation". It is not a gift, it is a game played in which God set the rules for a possible string of horrible acts in which he can alleviate all responsiblity to intercede. And at the same time, like you said, break the flawed rules he created and intervene when he sees fit. I don't buy it, not by a supposedly concurrently omnipotent and omnibenelovent being.

It is bad logic heaped upon bad ethics.

Once again I don't claim to have the answers but in my view to only allow "lesser forms" of evil would mean that on the opposite end there could only be lesser forms of goodness and love. It is kind of like science, (you'll love this) "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

I also believe that he allows things to happen on Earth that many see as horrible or bad, I do believe we are "tested" by our life experiences, some more than others. Remember our life on Earth is very short, the life after is much more important in the grand scheme of things (if you believe), so in essence your life on Earth, no matter how horrible it was, will be beyond belief in the afterlife (if you choose to believe).
 
#46
#46
The problem is you are trying to use human reasoning, which is flawed, to explain the thinking of a being (God) you will never be able to grasp.
 
#47
#47
Hey JZ..can you prove the bible is legit...or is it just your belief system.I think that it's just a book written in the past so people had something to believe in...I feel the same for the Koran and all other religious scripture.

Can you prove it's not legit?
 
#48
#48
Once again I don't claim to have the answers but in my view to only allow "lesser forms" of evil would mean that on the opposite end there could only be lesser forms of goodness and love. It is kind of like science, (you'll love this) "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

This is the bad ethics part I was talking about. What good, on any scale, in any place, under any circumstances, could possibly justify the slaughter of 6 million Jews? Even on a smaller scale this works. For instance, my wife and I have a beautiful 3 month-old who we love more than anything else in this world. If tomorrow he were to be kidnapped and killed by some psychopath, I would in no way be comforted by the fact that something, somewhere, equally good on the other end of the moral spectrum is happening. And this is the case that would represent the end game of the free will moral logic you suggest above.

On the surface what you say makes perfect sense, further investigation into shows it is a mile wide and an inch deep.
 
#49
#49
I had no idea that this was the procedure for Partial Birth Abortions. Wow!!

A. Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with
forceps. (Remember this is a live baby)
B. The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
C. The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
D. The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors
are then opened to enlarge the hole.
E. The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The
child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead
baby is then removed.

How could a person perform this procedure?
 
#50
#50
The problem is you are trying to use human reasoning, which is flawed, to explain the thinking of a being (God) you will never be able to grasp.

The free will logic is the product of centuries of theological speculation by man. And how am I supposed to summarily dismiss all reasoning by man and still believe men who supposedly profess what God is thinking?

Anybody can believe what they want. But to claim that it is an absolute fact that you know what God is thinking is another story because by your own definition, you can't understand it.
 

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