Headline: Perry's way back....

#1
S

sjt18

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#1
.... into the game.

Apparently he's going to propose a flat tax next week in SC.

Credit Cain for moving the debate in the right direction. Romney is stuck on this issue. Romney btw has been elusive and unspecific on taxes. IIRC, he raised taxes in Mass.

This is also consistent with his belief in Keynes and his fundamental Progressivism. He believes in gov't power and in the legitimacy of manipulating the economy through the tax code.
 
#2
#2
lol .. original ... will he call it 17? not that I'm not for something like that, it's just fun watching him implode
 
#3
#3
I didn't take time to read the article yet.

The flat tax is an exceptional idea if done right. There's a couple of different ways of doing it right. One would be several brackets starting at fairly high income with no deductions. Another would be a single rate over a single very high deductable.

The demagogues will declare any simplification plan a "shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class"... nothing could be further from the truth but that's what they will say.
 
#4
#4
I liked Steve Forbe's idea of a flat tax, IIRC it was 17% for all income levels with no liability for the first 33,000 in earned income.
 
#7
#7
VOLatile said:
Still too incredibly socially conservative for my tastes.
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I know what I am "afraid of" from social liberals but what are you afraid of from social conservatives?

Do you think they will outlaw stuff based on morality?

Best I can tell right now, social conservatives are a broad group that believes that abortion should be illegal because it violates someone's right to live... and otherwise that gov't should not dictate morality to individuals and force the acceptance of things we do not agree with.

It also occurs to me that if someone is truly a small gov't conservative... why their social positions would matter. If they want to take the power to manipulate people and states away from the federal gov't... why are you concerned?
 
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sjt18 said:
The demagogues will declare any simplification plan a "shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class"... nothing could be further from the truth but that's what they will say.
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Exactly . . . the arguments they use against 999 can be twisted into arguments against the Flat Tax, Fair Tax etc. It's a lot easier to criticize a proposal than to put yourself out there with an idea during a campaign.

If it were my plan - and there's no danger of that ever happening - I'd be a little vague on what the actual rate is so these advocacy groups couldn't come in and score it to meet an agenda.
 
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GAVol said:
Exactly . . . the arguments they use against 999 can be twisted into arguments against the Flat Tax, Fair Tax etc. It's a lot easier to criticize a proposal than to put yourself out there with an idea during a campaign.

If it were my plan - and there's no danger of that ever happening - I'd be a little vague on what the actual rate is so these advocacy groups couldn't come in and score it to meet an agenda.
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No one serious about reforming the system (aka a small gov't conservative) can get by with that. Obama was pretty much vague about everything. He was blessed by the MSM and got a pass. He is still getting a pass on specifics when he proposes things like his jobs plan. The MSM just isn't interested in a serious analysis of it.

The left will oppose tax reform because it takes a key manipulation tool away from them. If they can't offer tax code carrots then their contributions from business will dry up. If they can't demagogue taxes on the "rich" their populist support will diminish.

Of all the things the left cannot allow... tax code reform is at the very top... primarily because they know it will work.

FWIW, the establishment GOP are in the same boat.
 
#10
#10
how is perry a small govt conservative? He's tried to push through social legislation forcing women to get HPV shots...
 
#11
#11
KiffinKiller said:
how is perry a small govt conservative? He's tried to push through social legislation forcing women to get HPV shots...
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It was more of a generic statement than one about Perry.

I don't think Perry can win the nomination. I have not made a final decision on him. He might could still convince me but has a long, long way to go.

IIRC, he said that decision was a mistake. I have other concerns... but not so much that.

What I am most optimistic about with him is that he's the second domino to fall. Cain and now Perry should pressure the other candidates to sign up for either a flat tax, fair tax, or some proposal to simplify and lower taxes.

The only one I do not think will accept tax code changes as a campaign point is Romney. I hope it will finish him.
 
#12
#12
He doesn't ooze big govt to you? I thought you, of all people, would be able to smell the smug air of govt on him.
 
#14
#14
sjt18 said:
I didn't take time to read the article yet.

The flat tax is an exceptional idea if done right. There's a couple of different ways of doing it right. One would be several brackets starting at fairly high income with no deductions. Another would be a single rate over a single very high deductable.

The demagogues will declare any simplification plan a "shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class"... nothing could be further from the truth but that's what they will say.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the reason wealthy folks support the idea of a flat tax is because it will reduce taxes on the middle class and raise their own taxes.

This is also the reason that conservatives support it - because it would cost the wealthiest more in taxes. Stupid liberals just making it up that a flat tax would be bad idea for the middle class. What's left of it anyway....
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#16
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KiffinKiller said:
He doesn't ooze big govt to you? I thought you, of all people, would be able to smell the smug air of govt on him.
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I stopped paying alot of attention to him when he pretty much imploded in the debates. His and Romney's cat fight the other night also suggests to me that neither will come out on top.

The national media led by libs are having their say right now. In a few months, the serious grass roots level GOP conservatives will start the business of selecting a nominee.

The only thing Perry has done since the first debate to peak my interest is announce that he would propose a flat tax. The rest is just noise.
 
#17
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lawgator1 said:
Yeah, the reason wealthy folks support the idea of a flat tax is because it will reduce taxes on the middle class and raise their own taxes.
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Who said the genuinely "rich" support it? The guys at the very tip top don't. They own politiicans that assure they are protected from paying taxes.

The broader next layer of "rich" who run small businesses and the like believe will lower their taxes but are sure it will lower their costs of paying taxes and unshackle their business decisions.

This is also the reason that conservatives support it - because it would cost the wealthiest more in taxes. Stupid liberals just making it up that a flat tax would be bad idea for the middle class. What's left of it anyway....
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Liberals are stupid about this. Liberals think only surface level for some reason on taxes. They actually believe that raising business taxes or taxes on the "rich" will just be absorbed. That is manifestly stupid. Taxes are a cost to people and organizations at that level. When costs go up then you either cut somewhere else (like wages and benefits) or else you raise your price.

By the same token, lower taxes on the "rich" does not mean raising them on the middle class or poor. The cost of complying with the tax code in this country is absolutely outrageous. Further, tax cuts widen margins... which will in turn LOWER prices over time and enable companies to hire more/compensate better.

Taxes eventually go against the private sector as a whole. Any increase will eventually be distributed across the spectrum... likewise any cut. The only "outs" on paying taxes are the artificial ones created by the progressive structure and 75K pages of designed loopholes and favors.
 
#18
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sjt18 said:
I didn't take time to read the article yet.

The flat tax is an exceptional idea if done right. There's a couple of different ways of doing it right. One would be several brackets starting at fairly high income with no deductions. Another would be a single rate over a single very high deductable.

The demagogues will declare any simplification plan a "shift of the tax burden from the rich to the middle class"... nothing could be further from the truth but that's what they will say.
Click to expand...

I prefer the Fair Tax myself but a well thought out Flat Tax is much better and more reasonable than what we have now, We could eliminate or at least greatly reduce the IRS and save alot of taxpayers money.
 
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#19
LG, if we were running a business, it would be similar to Walmart's decision not to dispute returns. They discovered that the cost of disputing them... cost more money than just taking them.

IIRC, the cost of compliance including the IRS costs is around 22% (http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr138.pdf). A Fair Tax or flat tax cuts that to a fraction.

What this means is that you can simplify, cut the actual taxes against the private sector, and STILL raise the same revenue.
 
#20
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sjt18 said:
LG, if we were running a business, it would be similar to Walmart's decision not to dispute returns. They discovered that the cost of disputing them... cost more money than just taking them.

IIRC, the cost of compliance including the IRS costs is around 22% (http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr138.pdf). A Fair Tax or flat tax cuts that to a fraction.

What this means is that you can simplify, cut the actual taxes against the private sector, and STILL raise the same revenue.
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ah yes, the same way our health care providers operate. Oh wait - they dispute everything.
 
#21
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KiffinKiller said:
ah yes, the same way our health care providers operate. Oh wait - they dispute everything.
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Health care providers do?

Insurance companies do. But providers just want to get paid.

But you help make my point. The more red tape and pages to the law there is... the greater the cost of compliance and the more people are needed to monitor the system. The more complexity there is, the more costly disputes/audits/trials/lawyers/tax accountants... unnecessary time, effort, and expense there is.

Simplify---- lower rates on all---- INCREASE net revenues to the gov't. KK, what I hope you realize is the current tax code is NOT designed for revenue collection... it is designed to let Progressive statists/idealists to manipulate private citizens en masse or specifically.

Let me put it this way. If my company's cost to collect what was owed to us amounted to 22% of revenue... we couldn't stay in business. That's not just inefficient collections... it is STUPID inefficiency.
 
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#22
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sjt18 said:
Health care providers do?

Insurance companies do. But providers just want to get paid.

But you help make my point. The more red tape and pages to the law there is... the greater the cost of compliance and the more people are needed to monitor the system. The more complexity there is, the more costly disputes/audits/trials/lawyers/tax accountants... unnecessary time, effort, and expense there is.

Simplify---- lower rates on all---- INCREASE net revenues to the gov't. KK, what I hope you realize is the current tax code is NOT designed for revenue collection... it is designed to let Progressive statists/idealists to manipulate private citizens en masse or specifically.

Let me put it this way. If my company's cost to collect what was owed to us amounted to 22% of revenue... we couldn't stay in business. That's not just inefficient collections... it is STUPID inefficiency.
Click to expand...

Ya, sorry - insurance companies.
 
#25
#25
I agree that the cost of compliance is out of control.

How about this -- instead of a flat tax, let's literally get rid of all deductions and exemptions of any kind for individuals making, say, over $50,000 a year, regardless of source, and for companies with revenues of over $5 million a year. Keep the graduated rate structure, but lower the rates across the board by half of what the loss of the deductions and exemptions is.

Everyone pays a lower rate. De minimis cost of compliance saves everyone money, as well. Dependable and stable. And no politicians carving out exemptions for their contributors makes the whole thing much more transparent.

.
 
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