Help Me Understand ...

#26
#26
volsforever27 said:
Your posts make me smile... thank you for that. If you don't think that illegals are getting assistance, then you need to go to any local DHS. Not only are they getting it, it's easier for them than an actual citizen. But you're right, I'm uninformed... :lolabove:
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I didn't say they didn't get assistance. I conceded that they do, but that it's rare and they make up a tiny percentage of people on the federal welfare payrolls, predominantly because the screening process for aliens is extremely thorough, stringent and effective. Furthermore, with the recent implementation of new ID-related regulations, obtaining welfare benefits without legal resident status in the US will be virtually impossible.
 
#27
#27
BigPapaVol said:
i can tell you that the section 8 thing is a forever deal.
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Yes, section 8 benefits are currently infinite, though there have been several attempts to pass limiting legislation. I haven't really heard of this program suffering from a level of abuse comparable to cash benefits programs though. Admittedly, my experience with that program is fairly limited. You probably have a better perspective on this one.
 
#28
#28
ksushalovesthevols said:
The number of people receiving or not receiving a benefit is a pretty objective measure. It's not something one can fudge with a different statistical approach. Payouts have also gone down. (That you might be able to argue, based on whether we're considering the gross payout to all recipients or the individual payouts on a pro rata basis.)

I agree that funding should be allocated to ensure that as few people as possible are getting undeserved benefits. That's something that conservatives (who tend to vote their wallet) and liberals (who tend to vote their consience) can agree upon. Fraud causes material wastement of federal funds -- tax payer revenues that can be diverted to help individuals who genuinely require assistance.
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there are no objective measures in government accounting. that's why it wastes more money than even the grossest of misallocating charitable organizations.

Any arguments to police the system are political suicide, so implying that it has truly changed is a waste of your time.

Finally, I found the little jab at conservatives having no conscience kind of cute. Wonder how the collective conscience of those who created our giant inalterable welfare state / welfare mentality feels today? Again, tragic that we've created a dependent class of citizens because short term cash fixes make us feel good.
 
#29
#29
ksushalovesthevols said:
I didn't say they didn't get assistance. I conceded that they do, but that it's rare and they make up a tiny percentage of people on the federal welfare payrolls, predominantly because the screening process for aliens is extremely thorough, stringent and effective. Furthermore, with the recent implementation of new ID-related regulations, obtaining welfare benefits without legal resident status in the US will be virtually impossible.
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I'm sure you will resort to name calling again, but here it goes anyway... the percentage of illegals getting assistance is a LOT higher than you're willing to either admit or believe. I went to lunch recently with a friend who works at the local DHS here, and he told me and showed me how much easier it was for them to get assistance then the average joe (i.e. less paperwork, etc) so I am sorry but that is simply untrue.

As far as the new ID regulations, I hope you're still posting on this board a few years from now, so we can discuss whether or not this is working... criminals (and yes that includes the illegals) will always find a way to beat the system, always.
 
#30
#30
BigPapaVol said:
there are no objective measures in government accounting. that's why it wastes more money than even the grossest of misallocating charitable organizations.

Any arguments to police the system are political suicide, so implying that it has truly changed is a waste of your time.

Finally, I found the little jab at conservatives having no conscience kind of cute. Wonder how the collective conscience of those who created our giant inalterable welfare state / welfare mentality feels today? Again, tragic that we've created a dependent class of citizens because short term cash fixes make us feel good.
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And she thought my motherland comment was trying to be cute... typical.
 
#31
#31
volsforever27 said:
I'm sure you will resort to name calling again, but here it goes anyway... the percentage of illegals getting assistance is a LOT higher than you're willing to either admit or believe. I went to lunch recently with a friend who works at the local DHS here, and he told me and showed me how much easier it was for them to get assistance then the average joe (i.e. less paperwork, etc) so I am sorry but that is simply untrue.

As far as the new ID regulations, I hope you're still posting on this board a few years from now, so we can discuss whether or not this is working... criminals (and yes that includes the illegals) will always find a way to beat the system, always.
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1. Provide your reputable source for estimates of undocumented individuals receiving federal benefits.

2. I'm curious to what specifically your friend told you (i.e., what specifically makes it easier for illegal immigrants to get benefits?). And don't just tell me "they have their ways." I want specifics.
 
#32
#32
ksushalovesthevols said:
1. Provide your reputable source for estimates of undocumented individuals receiving federal benefits.

2. I'm curious to what specifically your friend told you (i.e., what specifically makes it easier for illegal immigrants to get benefits?). And don't just tell me "they have their ways." I want specifics.
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that's a ridiculous request. the guy is saying that his office is skirting the rules and you're asking him to talk about it here?

Lack of specifics makes it no less true. I can tell you like to believe in the system, but let's stop kidding ourselves.
 
#33
#33
ksushalovesthevols said:
I agree that funding should be allocated to ensure that as few people as possible are getting undeserved benefits. That's something that conservatives (who tend to vote their wallet) and liberals (who tend to vote their consience) can agree upon.
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actually that's pretty true (libs v conserv). Some want to just throw around entitlement programs while others try to figure out how to pay for them without placing an unfair burden on the rest of society. And your 1st sentence should read "funding should be allocated to ensure that as few people as possible are getting benefits" for most to agree with it.
 
#34
#34
utvolpj said:
actually that's pretty true (libs v conserv). Some want to just throw around entitlement programs while others try to figure out how to pay for them without placing an unfair burden on the rest of society. And your 1st sentence should read "funding should be allocated to ensure that as few people as possible are getting benefits" for most to agree with it.
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absolutely. Deserved benefits would be a very small minority of those currently receiving gov't cash for no work in return.
 
#35
#35
ksushalovesthevols said:
1. Provide your reputable source for estimates of undocumented individuals receiving federal benefits.

2. I'm curious to what specifically your friend told you (i.e., what specifically makes it easier for illegal immigrants to get benefits?). And don't just tell me "they have their ways." I want specifics.
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Well, apparently it's my purpose in life to prove things to you, I'm glad you told me otherwise I would have never known.

While BPV is right to a certain point, it's not so much that they're skirting the rules is that they are "encouraged" from certain higher ups to give them benefits. Without getting him in trouble, I will say one way they get the benefits is checking a box on the paperwork saying they're a seasonal worker, and they only have to provide a picture ID, or a proof of residence such as a utility bill. If you don't think that's easy to produce, you're crazy.


Edit: Also, when going to meet him, 70% of the people at the DHS were Hispanic... am I saying they were all illegal? Of course not, but odds are at least one was, and Cookeville has a well documented problem with illegals being here. Go ahead and call me racist, I know it's coming.
 
#36
#36
BigPapaVol said:
that's a ridiculous request. the guy is saying that his office is skirting the rules and you're asking him to talk about it here?

Lack of specifics makes it no less true. I can tell you like to believe in the system, but let's stop kidding ourselves.
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No skirting the rules. A government employee has no duty to protect evidence of fraud committed against the government.

Actually, the lack of specifics is precisely what makes it suspect. I don't need to kid myself, I know how immigration law interacts with the welfare system. I've been on the cases, I've seen it at work.

If you would like to have a discussion about why it's difficult, we can certainly have one, but in order for us to be on the same page, I'd have to point you to a couple statutes and regs. If you're willing to read through them, I'm more than willing to engage you in a discussion on the merits.
 
#37
#37
ksushalovesthevols said:
No skirting the rules. A government employee has no duty to protect evidence of fraud committed against the government.

Actually, the lack of specifics is precisely what makes it suspect. I don't need to kid myself, I know how immigration law interacts with the welfare system. I've been on the cases, I've seen it at work.

If you would like to have a discussion about why it's difficult, we can certainly have one, but in order for us to be on the same page, I'd have to point you to a couple statutes and regs. If you're willing to read through them, I'm more than willing to engage you in a discussion on the merits.
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No need, I'm sure you can spout BS better than anyone else here. I have no need to prove myself here, your opinion is neither wanted nor cared for. I was simply stating a fact... take it however you want.
 
#38
#38
ksushalovesthevols said:
No skirting the rules. A government employee has no duty to protect evidence of fraud committed against the government.

Actually, the lack of specifics is precisely what makes it suspect. I don't need to kid myself, I know how immigration law interacts with the welfare system. I've been on the cases, I've seen it at work.

If you would like to have a discussion about why it's difficult, we can certainly have one, but in order for us to be on the same page, I'd have to point you to a couple statutes and regs. If you're willing to read through them, I'm more than willing to engage you in a discussion on the merits.
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he just provided enough specifics to make it absolutely true and you know exactly the situation he's describing.

As to the statutes, I don't have any interest. I don't see the illegals as the problem with our entitlements programs. It's our lack of willingness to take a hard look at the program, admit that we've horribly wronged a huge group of now effectively worthless citizens, or to make any sensible policy decisions.
 
#39
#39
volsforever27 said:
Well, apparently it's my purpose in life to prove things to you, I'm glad you told me otherwise I would have never known.

While BPV is right to a certain point, it's not so much that they're skirting the rules is that they are "encouraged" from certain higher ups to give them benefits. Without getting him in trouble, I will say one way they get the benefits is checking a box on the paperwork saying they're a seasonal worker, and they only have to provide a picture ID, or a proof of residence such as a utility bill. If you don't think that's easy to produce, you're crazy.


Edit: Also, when going to meet him, 70% of the people at the DHS were Hispanic... am I saying they were all illegal? Of course not, but odds are at least one was, and Cookeville has a well documented problem with illegals being here. Go ahead and call me racist, I know it's coming.
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Do you ever look at a group of white people, in any setting, and assume at least one of them is illegal? Honestly, now.
 
#40
#40
BigPapaVol said:
he just provided enough specifics to make it absolutely true and you know exactly the situation he's describing.

As to the statutes, I don't have any interest. I don't see the illegals as the problem with our entitlements programs. It's our lack of willingness to take a hard look at the program, admit that we've horribly wronged a huge group of now effectively worthless citizens, or to make any sensible policy decisions.
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I will say no one (illegals, citizens etc) can take advantage of the system if we honestly wanted to do something about it.
 
#41
#41
ksushalovesthevols said:
Do you ever look at a group of white people, in any setting, and assume at least one of them is illegal? Honestly, now.
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Maybe common sense is not your forte, but I was using it. I knew you would play the race card, and no I wasn't. Please know more about where I live before you spout off things you don't understand. :crazy:

I also noticed you ignored the rest of the post.
 
#42
#42
He provided specifics. Let's not jump the gun here and assume that this is "proof" that it's true or that this is a rampant problem. Furthermore, his friend works at DHS (not an agency that distributes welfare benefits to anyone, including immigrants), so his "evidence" is second-hand at best.

The agencies that do deal with welfare have the protections of REAL ID, extensive SSN databases, I-9 regulations, the SAVE program, among many others to monitor welfare fraud. Furthermore, most agencies providing cash benefits require proof of immigration status in the form of a valid visa or resident alien card, a US government issued ID (under REAL ID driver's licenses are not available to illegal immigrants), and a valid social security number (which the agency can check against its database). It would be nice if you could just bring in a picture you made at a photobooth and your water bill, but in every instance when a client represented by our clinic/organization has applied for government benefits of any sort, they've been required to produce the aforementioned documents. And this isn't like passing off your fake ID to a bouncer so you can get into the club; these organizations have all the tools at their disposal to idenitfy false papers.
 
#43
#43
volsforever27 said:
Maybe common sense is not your forte, but I was using it. I knew you would play the race card, and no I wasn't. Please know more about where I live before you spout off things you don't understand. :crazy:

I also noticed you ignored the rest of the post.
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I'm not playing anything. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and asking you a legitimate question.

See above.
 
#44
#44
I like how you say all these checks are in place but reality is they are not working. My opinion comes from working in the construction industry in Phoenix for 7 years.
 
#45
#45
ksushalovesthevols said:
He provided specifics. Let's not jump the gun here and assume that this is "proof" that it's true or that this is a rampant problem. Furthermore, his friend works at DHS (not an agency that distributes welfare benefits to anyone, including immigrants), so his "evidence" is second-hand at best.

The agencies that do deal with welfare have the protections of REAL ID, extensive SSN databases, I-9 regulations, the SAVE program, among many others to monitor welfare fraud. Furthermore, most agencies providing cash benefits require proof of immigration status in the form of a valid visa or resident alien card, a US government issued ID (under REAL ID driver's licenses are not available to illegal immigrants), and a valid social security number (which the agency can check against its database). It would be nice if you could just bring in a picture you made at a photobooth and your water bill, but in every instance when a client represented by our clinic/organization has applied for government benefits of any sort, they've been required to produce the aforementioned documents. And this isn't like passing off your fake ID to a bouncer so you can get into the club; these organizations have all the tools at their disposal to idenitfy false papers.
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Even if that was 100% effective, what I'm referring to is food stamps, insurance, if they have kids they get Families First which pays them actual cash.... I consider that welfare. Who needs the welfare you're referring to when they get all that without even breaking a sweat? If I or any other citizen wanted any of that, I would have to provide proof of income, proof of residence, what kind of car I drive, how much it's worth, if I have cd's, stocks, bonds, etc. proof that my child is in school full time, and so on. I think that's sad.


As far as my evidence not proving anything, I owe you nothing, I'm not on trial, and as stated before I really could care less what you think. You asked, I provided, and it's still not good enough. I'm not going to get a hidden cam and document the proof for you. One of my best friends is a single mom going back to school; she tried to apply for all those things I listed above and had a hard time getting anything. She's still uninsured, while it's a fact a lot of illegals here in TN have Tenncare. You can argue whether or not the state should even provide insurance, but if they do I think it's unfair that any illegal gets it while she doesn't.
 
#47
#47
Do you have to be a certain age to apply for Welfare? I wonder how many single moms are on Welfare and how old they are? I have certainly filled prescriptions for young moms on CHIPS(children's health insurance program in Pennsylvania) and whether or not they are receiving support for their child I dont know. It seems like I see so many young girls with babies.
 
#49
#49
ksushalovesthevols said:
:crazy: How can you spout off these things with such unabashed conviction when you are so grossly uninformed?!

Illegal immigrants are ineligible for welfare. VERY few are actually successful in obtaining these benefits through fraudulent means with the onset of the new I-9 regulations and REAL ID.
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ridiculous. i'd say at least 40% of the illegal immigrants in so cal are receiving some sort of govt benefits. live in the area and see the abuses and get back to me before you decide there isn't a problem.
 
#50
#50
ksushalovesthevols said:
The agencies that do deal with welfare have the protections of REAL ID, extensive SSN databases, I-9 regulations, the SAVE program, among many others to monitor welfare fraud. Furthermore, most agencies providing cash benefits require proof of immigration status in the form of a valid visa or resident alien card, a US government issued ID (under REAL ID driver's licenses are not available to illegal immigrants), and a valid social security number (which the agency can check against its database). It would be nice if you could just bring in a picture you made at a photobooth and your water bill, but in every instance when a client represented by our clinic/organization has applied for government benefits of any sort, they've been required to produce the aforementioned documents. And this isn't like passing off your fake ID to a bouncer so you can get into the club; these organizations have all the tools at their disposal to idenitfy false papers.
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they share id's from their family members who are legal. they use the same social security # 50 times yet no checks it. they declare their kids and their neighbors kids as dependents and collect welfare assisantance. no one checks. the abuses are absolutely unbelievable. go work in a public assistance office in so cal.
 
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