Hillary wins Pennsylvania...

#51
#51
KB5252 said:
Yes he can but then the lawsuits from gay and lesbian orgs. start and these priests will be stuck in litigation and raked over the coals for their religious beliefs.
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It wouldn't hold up in court, they have a right to refuse marriage to anyone.
 
#52
#52
KB5252 said:
Here is a recap of my earlier post. You and I both know that there will be groups and or people who will seek to be married in a church by a priest if for no other reason than to try to force churches etc. to "legitimize" their agenda. That is why you have to keep marriage separate, because it is a practice rooted in religious belief and doctrine. Therefore you have to protect the religious institutions from litigation and infringements on their religious freedoms.
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No, you don't. It's called separation of church and state.

Marriages don't have to be legitimized by organized religion. And churches don't have to legitimize them. All marriages are legal and recognized by the law. But not all marriages are recognized by organized religion. Homosexual couples are seeking legally recognized marriages. Those who attend religious services would love for their churches to recognize their marriages too, but the law can't and will not force that to happen.

Over time more people will realize that these assumptions are just plain false. What do you believe their "agenda" is? To sue the pants off some religious organization? That's just not true.
 
#54
#54
KB5252 said:
Until it makes it to the Supreme Court.
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Is that really what you're afraid of? Homosexual couples suing all the way to the Supreme Court to force an organized religion to recognize their marriage?

Augusta National doesn't allow women members, but I don't see the SC spending any time on any such lawsuits.
 
#55
#55
TennNC said:
No, you don't. It's called separation of church and state.

Marriages don't have to be legitimized by organized religion. And churches don't have to legitimize them. All marriages are legal and recognized by the law. But not all marriages are recognized by organized religion. Homosexual couples are seeking legally recognized marriages. Those who attend religious services would love for their churches to recognize their marriages too, but the law can't and will not force that to happen.

Over time more people will realize that these assumptions are just plain false. What do you believe their "agenda" is? To sue the pants off some religious organization? That's just not true.
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In general no I don't believe that to be the case. But there are gay rights organizations that do have the agenda of causing as much disruption as possible for and in churches and religious organizations.
 
#57
#57
TennNC said:
SS - tell me how we do that when Boomers, who are making most of these decisions, have been waiting their whole lives to cash in on this? I'm all ears.

In terms of health care, I know very little on this, but I just returned from Holland where every citizen has health care, and they seem to be doing pretty well. My guess, and yes it's just a guess, is that if healthcare spending is cut in half, we're going to have some seriously negative side effects.

Just curious - why would you not recommend cutting egregious spending on massive defense corporations creating systems that will never see the light of day? Not talking troops here, but rather defense corporate welfare.
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That's great for the boomers but eventually it will run out. Do we take the necessary steps now to cut it or just sit and wait for the big surprise in a few years? I hope people our age realize this and are taking the necessary steps to be prepared for retirement. I know I am not counting on any money from the gov't to help me.

We haven't tried free market healthcare but people still believe only socialized medicine will work. I'm all for shopping around for it and bet I would pay less in the end.

The above items you mentioned only serve to make citizens dependent on the federal gov't. We need to break that cycle before it all comes crashing down from the enormous weight.

Agreed on military spending.
 
#58
#58
TennNC said:
I'm not in a position to argue that point, and I don't really have an opinion.

I just think for all the talk about massive government spending, we should look at where the govt is spending that money, and only 2% of it is on education.

While on the subject, however, BPV, interested in your thoughts on this idea. Seems military academies are very successful in recruiting and training military leaders, who are obliged to serve their country when their education is finished. So, why not set up a similar structure for teachers? Pay for their post-HS education, train them for the profession, and require them to teach in public schools for a certain period of time afterward?

We need good teachers - just a thought.
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I like the idea, but I'm not sure the same inducements the military academies enjoy would exist in a similar program focused upon teachers.

There is probably a way to make it work, but you would have to convince the lunatics running the system today that the current situation is broken.
 
#61
#61
TennNC said:
Is that really what you're afraid of? Homosexual couples suing all the way to the Supreme Court to force an organized religion to recognize their marriage?

Augusta National doesn't allow women members, but I don't see the SC spending any time on any such lawsuits.
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I'm not necessarily afraid of it but it is a situation I could see played out. And to be honest I don't have much faith in the Supreme Court when they use international law when deciding some cases, which flies in the face of upholding the Constitution. To my understanding it is their duty to uphold the Constitution and I find it hard to do so when you bring outside decisions and precedents into the process.
 
#62
#62
TennNC said:
Is that really what you're afraid of? Homosexual couples suing all the way to the Supreme Court to force an organized religion to recognize their marriage?

Augusta National doesn't allow women members, but I don't see the SC spending any time on any such lawsuits.
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but that's because it's a private club issue and doesn't fall under the interstate commerce laws.

Religious organizations fall under the gov't purview because they are non-profits and maintain that status partially by staying out of the political realm altogether.
 
#63
#63
utvolpj said:
That's great for the boomers but eventually it will run out. Do we take the necessary steps now to cut it or just sit and wait for the big surprise in a few years? I hope people our age realize this and are taking the necessary steps to be prepared for retirement. I know I am not counting on any money from the gov't to help me.

We haven't tried free market healthcare but people still believe only socialized medicine will work. I'm all for shopping around for it and bet I would pay less in the end.

The above items you mentioned only serve to make citizens dependent on the federal gov't. We need to break that cycle before it all comes crashing down from the enormous weight.

Agreed on military spending.
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I'm not counting on one penny of Social Security, but you and I are also probably in the top 10-15% income bracket in this country. The overwhelming majority of citizens in this country who collect SS rely on it.

Not saying SS is great, just saying it's a very difficult issue.
 
#64
#64
BigPapaVol said:
but that's because it's a private club issue and doesn't fall under the interstate commerce laws.

Religious organizations fall under the gov't purview because they are non-profits and maintain that status partially by staying out of the political realm altogether.
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Which is why people like KB5252 should have nothing to worry about. Separation of church and state.
 
#65
#65
BigPapaVol said:
I like the idea, but I'm not sure the same inducements the military academies enjoy would exist in a similar program focused upon teachers.

There is probably a way to make it work, but you would have to convince the lunatics running the system today that the current situation is broken.
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Gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.

thx. for the feedback. When I run for prez you'll know who I am.
 
#66
#66
TennNC said:
I'm not counting on one penny of Social Security, but you and I are also probably in the top 10-15% income bracket in this country. The overwhelming majority of citizens in this country who collect SS rely on it.

Not saying SS is great, just saying it's a very difficult issue.
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Agree, the problem is that it was supposed to help those retired or unable to work. Now we have too many able bodied people who rely on it and people who have child after child and simply milk it.
 
#67
#67
TennNC said:
Which is why people like KB5252 should have nothing to worry about. Separation of church and state.
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I've had discussions on these issues with a gay family member. There is a separation of church and state but both sides agendas has thrown it into the political realm. My concerns are valid as well as the rights of gays and lesbians. What both sides need is some understanding and to meet in the middle for the best outcome both sides can live with. I think the best solution is to have civil unions with equal protection under the law as marriages recognized by every state in the union.
 
#68
#68
TennNC said:
Sort of like rights for women or people of color?
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No not at all. Tough to compare the rights of a race or gender to a choice of who you have sex with in your home.

HIV/AIDS

Homosexual activity remains a major source of transmission of the HIV/AIDS virus.

A 1997 New York Times article reported that a young male homosexual has about a 50 percent chance of getting HIV by middle age. (Sheryl Gay Stolberg, "Gay Culture Weighs Sense and Sexuality," New York Times (Late edition, east coast), November 23, 1997, section 4, p.1)

As of 1998, 54 percent of all AIDS cases in America were homosexual men and according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) nearly 90 percent of these men acquired HIV through sexual activity with other men. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998, June, HIV/AIDS Surveillance Report 10 (1)).

Even more alarming, the Center for Disease Control & Prevention reported in 1998 that an estimated half of all new HIV infections in the United States are among people under 25. Among 13-to 24-year-olds, 52 percent of all AIDS cases reported among males in 1997 were among young men who have sex with men. (CDC Fact Sheet: "Young People at Risk," Center for Disease Control & Prevention, National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention, July 24, 1998

Researchers at St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver conducted a study to assess how HIV infection and AIDS is impacting the mortality rates for homosexual and bisexual men. Lead by R.S. Hogg, et al and published in the International Journal of Epidemiology (vol. 27, no. 3, 1997, pp 657-661) they reached an alarming conclusion.

"In a major Canadian center, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is eight to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality continues, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. Under the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban center are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871."

Physical Health Risks

In addition to AIDS, there is a long list of maladies attendant upon the homosexually active population. Of particular concern is anal cancer. According to J. R. Daling et.al, "Correlates of Homosexual Behavior and the Incidence of Anal Cancer," Journal of the American Medical Association 247, no.14, 9 April 1982, pp. 1988-90, the risk of anal cancer soars by 4000 percent among those who engage in anal intercourse.

Emotional/Mental Health Risks

Two extensive studies published in the October 1999 issue of American Medical Association Archives of General Psychiatry confirmed that youth who identify themselves as homosexual, lesbian and bisexual are four times more likely than their peers to suffer from major depression; three times more likely to suffer anxiety disorders, four times more likely to suffer conduct disorders, six times more likely to suffer from multiple disorders and more than six times more likely to have attempted suicide.

Many homosexual activists point their finger at homophobia as the cause of these disorders, but the most extensive studies have been done in the Netherlands and New Zealand where homosexuality is widely accepted.
 
#69
#69
TennNC said:
Gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.

thx. for the feedback. When I run for prez you'll know who I am.
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I am completely willing to break all of those eggs and start over. Current public education is an exercise in trying to instill discipline with no means whatsoever and educating for particular tests with the latest and greatest methodology (which will be scrapped next year for another).

Unfortunately, many of us pay for the education system and will never use it. I'm all for privatization or allowing me to make the decision to pay for the public schools and use them, or opt for the much more expensive private route.
 
#70
#70
Based on scientific evidence posted above, not religious views it is asinine to give rights to people who are gay. I'm not saying it should be outlawed by a law, but creating laws for them is a joke.

A 1997 New York Times article reported that a young male homosexual has about a 50 percent chance of getting HIV by middle age. (Sheryl Gay Stolberg, "Gay Culture Weighs Sense and Sexuality," New York Times (Late edition, east coast), November 23, 1997, section 4, p.1)

As of 1998, 54 percent of all AIDS cases in America were homosexual men and according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC) nearly 90 percent of these men acquired HIV through sexual activity with other men. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998, June, HIV/AIDS Surveillance Report 10 (1)).
 
#71
#71
I don't have problems with civil unions or even gay marriage. I do have problems with companies giving benefits to domestic partners when it basically comes out of my pocket. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gotten their GF or roommate benefits because of the domestic partner rule at many companies. Shouldn't something that a) costs a lot of money and b) used to only be available to spouses and children require more of a commitment than just knowing or living with someone?
 
#72
#72
droski said:
I don't have problems with civil unions or even gay marriage. I do have problems with companies giving benefits to domestic partners when it basically comes out of my pocket. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gotten their GF or roommate benefits because of the domestic partner rule at many companies. Shouldn't something that a) costs a lot of money and b) used to only be available to spouses and children require more of a commitment than just knowing or living with someone?
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they should at least be required to show proof of copulation.
 
#74
#74
droski said:
I don't have problems with civil unions or even gay marriage. I do have problems with companies giving benefits to domestic partners when it basically comes out of my pocket. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gotten their GF or roommate benefits because of the domestic partner rule at many companies. Shouldn't something that a) costs a lot of money and b) used to only be available to spouses and children require more of a commitment than just knowing or living with someone?
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Disney is actually considered a model company in this regard that others are using as a benchmark to how they can make it work with their company. They define domestic partners without regard to sex as either legally married or sharing the same domicile for a period of at least 7 years as in common law marriages. Not a terrible model to follow and provides the "commitment" aspect you seek.
 
#75
#75
JZVOL said:
Based on scientific evidence posted above, not religious views it is asinine to give rights to people who are gay. I'm not saying it should be outlawed by a law, but creating laws for them is a joke.
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You're not creating laws you're just forcing the current ones to apply to everyone.
 
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