Hot Seat Article- Butch Jones again edition

[hUTch2002]

College football hot seats: ESPN eyes early names for 2023 season

I know he still has defenders here but this guy should have 1- never been hired, 2- never gotten a 4th year after squandering all that talent for 3 years, and 3- should still be in court trying to get his buyout considering how he "worked" following his termination. He essentially worked for Bama being paid by UT. If that doesn't fire you up... I'm not sure what can.

There’s no AD in the country that would’ve fired Jones after 3 years. He won 5 his first year then 7, then 9. So you fire him after the 9 win season? I get your overall point and we definitely should’ve been able to bring in a better coach but you saying he shouldn’t have gotten a 4th year is ridiculous. And, to be fair, his resume was far better than Dooley’s coming in. Dooley was a worse hire to me but both were bad.

 

[Dudleys87]

There’s no AD in the country that would’ve fired Jones after 3 years. He won 5 his first year then 7, then 9. So you fire him after the 9 win season? I get your overall point and we definitely should’ve been able to bring in a better coach but you saying he shouldn’t have gotten a 4th year is ridiculous. And, to be fair, his resume was far better than Dooley’s coming in. Dooley was a worse hire to me but both were bad.

The talent outweighed the production. He handcuffed a coordinator and used him to buy another year.

He needed to fired regardless of the end result.

 

[hUTch2002]

The talent outweighed the production. He handcuffed a coordinator and used him to buy another year.

He needed to fired regardless of the end result.

That’s easy to say looking back. Who was calling for his head after 2015? No one and nor should they have been at that point. It’s easy to look back now and say this or that. Even I’m doing it as I’m saying he was a bad hire but I’m sure I wasn’t saying that after 2015. He did run that stupid read option his first year with Worley though when Worley basically never ran the ball (maybe twice all year?). That was enormously stupid and a huge red flag.

 

[brockytop]

Any AD who did their due diligence should never offer Jones a job. Not hard to see him as the total poser he is. Dude is nothing more than a used car salesman who fooled some idiots into giving him a head coaching job.

Dave Hart: “I have a level of expertise…”

 

[sjt18]

He worked the system just like he did the administration at UT and your surprised?

I think maybe the fact that with just public information I suspected he was an empty suit from the start. If you can see it from 1000 miles away based on public statements and behavior... How was it not seen up close and personal after those first 2 or 3 years? A lot of people here defended him but there is a danger to going only by a coach's record and not by the quality of his work and direction of the program. He had good talent essentially fall into his lap through legacies and UT homers like Hurd. He squandered that. How could anyone have doubts about what he would do as recruiting fell off?

 

[sjt18]

That’s easy to say looking back. Who was calling for his head after 2015? No one and nor should they have been at that point. It’s easy to look back now and say this or that. Even I’m doing it as I’m saying he was a bad hire but I’m sure I wasn’t saying that after 2015. He did run that stupid read option his first year with Worley though when Worley basically never ran the ball (maybe twice all year?). That was enormously stupid and a huge red flag.

Wrong. I and others expressed doubt about him starting in year 1 because of the way he underperformed and squandered talent. After 3 years anyone who was watching could see that he didn't know how to get performance out of talent. Starting in that year you could see that recruiting had begun to fall off.

This was a guy who absolutely couldn't coach. He had talent basically fall into his lap with homers and legacies for a couple of years. He was a good used car salesman. But he couldn't coach while being fully convinced that he was so smart that he would change the way football was played in the SEC. Some of the other crap he did like sleep studies and alternate S&C strategies was just pure comedy.

It would have taken intelligence, leadership, and courage because pure talent made him look far better than he was for a couple of years but Jones should have never gotten a year 4 and definitely not a year 5.

 

[sjt18]

There’s no AD in the country that would’ve fired Jones after 3 years. He won 5 his first year then 7, then 9. So you fire him after the 9 win season? I get your overall point and we definitely should’ve been able to bring in a better coach but you saying he shouldn’t have gotten a 4th year is ridiculous. And, to be fair, his resume was far better than Dooley’s coming in. Dooley was a worse hire to me but both were bad.

That simply is not true. A competent AD should have seen the underperformance starting in year 1. He took a team with multiple NFL draftees on both sides of the ball including an OL made up of 5 NFL talents... and couldn't even make a bowl game. What would Heupel have done with the first 3 rosters Jones had? Answer that honestly and then you'll see that your comment about it being "ridiculous"... is in fact ridiculous.

This past year Wisconsin recognized that their football program was not headed in the right direction. They fired Paul Chryst after 5 games. He started 2-3 for the second year in a row so they fired him. Up until Covid, he was 52-16 with 3 division championships in 5 years. He finished at Wisconsin with a 67-26 record with at least 9 wins in 5 of his 6 non-Covid seasons. He was 6-1 in bowls.

In every imaginable way he had a better resume than Jones and is in fact a vastly superior coach. Wisconsin's AD was smart enough to see the direction of the program and make the change BEFORE the next guy inherited a hole too deep to climb out of.

Pruitt wasn't a good hire. But the truth of the matter is that the UTAD allowed Jones to dig the program into a hole so deep that it would have taken a truly great coach to succeed. That's why it was so hard to hire a coach when Pruitt got the job... and when Heupel got the job. Guys saw the condition of the program and the expectations... and said no thanks. That was a DIRECT result of a lack of intelligence and wisdom after Jones' 3rd year.

 

[hUTch2002]

That simply is not true. A competent AD should have seen the underperformance starting in year 1. He took a team with multiple NFL draftees on both sides of the ball including an OL made up of 5 NFL talents... and couldn't even make a bowl game. What would Heupel have done with the first 3 rosters Jones had? Answer that honestly and then you'll see that your comment about it being "ridiculous"... is in fact ridiculous.

This past year Wisconsin recognized that their football program was not headed in the right direction. They fired Paul Chryst after 5 games. He started 2-3 for the second year in a row so they fired him. Up until Covid, he was 52-16 with 3 division championships in 5 years. He finished at Wisconsin with a 67-26 record with at least 9 wins in 5 of his 6 non-Covid seasons. He was 6-1 in bowls.

In every imaginable way he had a better resume than Jones and is in fact a vastly superior coach. Wisconsin's AD was smart enough to see the direction of the program and make the change BEFORE the next guy inherited a hole too deep to climb out of.

Pruitt wasn't a good hire. But the truth of the matter is that the UTAD allowed Jones to dig the program into a hole so deep that it would have taken a truly great coach to succeed. That's why it was so hard to hire a coach when Pruitt got the job... and when Heupel got the job. Guys saw the condition of the program and the expectations... and said no thanks. That was a DIRECT result of a lack of intelligence and wisdom after Jones' 3rd year.

Dude, starting 2-3 2 straight years like Chryst did is far different than improving 2 games every year. Again, no AD in the country would fire a coach improving 2 games each year. I agree maybe some signs were there (recruiting, the bizarre in game stuff at times) but the results were still good and that’s the bottom line. You’re playing arm chair QB. And you say you expressed concerns. Ok, that’s nowhere near the same as firing the guy. And, again, I don’t think a single person on here and certainly no AD would agree to fire a coach who won 5 games then 7 and then 9 3 years in unless other problems (like off the field stuff, NCAA violations, etc) were happening. You don’t like him and I get it but that’s skewing your view.

 

[DuckInAPen]

Looks to me like you're still holding a grunge against Butch for UT's failings.

Well, it sure beats raising cattle.

 

[SpookyAction]

I wasn't calling for Butch to be fired after the 2016 season, but I really was scratching my head about the disconnect between the state of the program vs my own expectations. I knew 2017 was going to be rough, but I expected 6-6 or so.

 

[stolitonic]

I wasn't calling for Butch to be fired after the 2016 season, but I really was scratching my head about the disconnect between the state of the program vs my own expectations. I knew 2017 was going to be rough, but I expected 6-6 or so.

I knew we were screwed after the first game of 17. We played GT in the MB dome (or was it still Georgia Dome then?). Was at that game and was painfully obvious our players had no interest in being there. Even the fanbase in attendance had a visceral reaction to the turnover trash can when it first appeared-think Botch lost most of them that night. How we squeaked out a win is beyond me-more a function of GT being horrible and collapsing than any skill on the part of UT. Lord knows we were never gonna out coach anyone with Botch at the helm.

 

[LouderVol]

I knew we were screwed after the first game of 17. We played GT in the MB dome (or was it still Georgia Dome then?). Was at that game and was painfully obvious our players had no interest in being there. Even the fanbase in attendance had a visceral reaction to the turnover trash can when it first appeared-think Botch lost most of them that night. How we squeaked out a win is beyond me-more a function of GT being horrible and collapsing than any skill on the part of UT. Lord knows we were never gonna out coach anyone with Botch at the helm.

He had spurrier's number

 

[Tnslim1]

He wasn't much of a coach but I heard that boy could flat blow a horn.

 

[stolitonic]

He had spurrier's number

So did pretty much everybody else near the end.

The game passed the Ol Ball Coach-and he knew it.

 

[LouderVol]

So did pretty much everybody else near the end.

The game passed the Ol Ball Coach-and he knew it.

Not in 2013 when he went 11-2.

Not saying Butch was a good coach, just saying that all the rhetoric doesnt have to be at 11 all the time when there are plenty of legitimate critiques.

 

[sjt18]

Dude, starting 2-3 2 straight years like Chryst did is far different than improving 2 games every year. Again, no AD in the country would fire a coach improving 2 games each year. I agree maybe some signs were there (recruiting, the bizarre in game stuff at times) but the results were still good and that’s the bottom line. You’re playing arm chair QB. And you say you expressed concerns. Ok, that’s nowhere near the same as firing the guy. And, again, I don’t think a single person on here and certainly no AD would agree to fire a coach who won 5 games then 7 and then 9 3 years in unless other problems (like off the field stuff, NCAA violations, etc) were happening. You don’t like him and I get it but that’s skewing your view.

Jones was a terrible coach and you had to make yourself willfully ignorant to miss it. He shouldn't have been hired. He should not have gotten a 4th or 5th year. That's no "armchair" QB thing. I said consistently that he had underperformed the talent he had. He did in every single year.

I "don't like him"... and I can absolutely assure you that is NOT skewing my opinion. The question I have is why you feel compelled to defend him. He was incompetent. He was a walking, talking cliche recording.

A competent AD would not have looked at him simply through the lens of wins. A competent AD would have looked at the direction of the program, how he compared to the coaches he competed against (who was outcoaching him and why), the quality of his work, the circumstances, the advantages/disadvantages, and then judged him on what was reasonable. Six or 7 wins was MORE than reasonable in the first year. It was reasonable to accept a mediocre season in year 2 due to youth. It is not reasonable to accept his in game coaching incompetence in year 3 vs OU, UF, and Arkansas. He pretty much had to get in the way to prevent that 4th year team from winning 10+ games on talent alone... and he did.

He was terrible at developing players. He was terrible "in game". He was terrible at building a culture. He was terrible at managing players. Other than that... you're right, he was a great coach that should have continued to get "more time"... maybe he should have been given 5 more years?

Heupel may still fail. There are things he controls which I think he's done well with. There are things he doesn't control. But Heupel has done far more with far less than Jones ever did. Heupel is the model for a coach that can turn UT around. There is no amount of time given to Jones that would have led to a turnaround. But I suspect you were among those clamoring to give him "more time"... as if somehow what was failing would work if just given time.

 

[05_never_again]

A competent AD would not have looked at him simply through the lens of wins. A competent AD would have looked at the direction of the program, how he compared to the coaches he competed against (who was outcoaching him and why), the quality of his work, the circumstances, the advantages/disadvantages, and then judged him on what was reasonable. Six or 7 wins was MORE than reasonable in the first year. It was reasonable to accept a mediocre season in year 2 due to youth. It is not reasonable to accept his in game coaching incompetence in year 3 vs OU, UF, and Arkansas. He pretty much had to get in the way to prevent that 4th year team from winning 10+ games on talent alone... and he did.

...and a competent AD would have ascertained, correctly, that the program was ascending in his first 3 years. Butch wasn't doing special things, like Heupel did last year, but from 2013-16 the program was not stagnating or regressing.

Butch inherited a mess from Dooley and made incremental, measured improvements over 3 years. He shouldn't have blown leads to OU, UF, and Arkansas in year 3 but we were only favored in one of those games (Arky, I think). OU went on to win the Big 12 and make the CFP that year. UF went on to have a decent year and win the SEC East. None of those losses were to bad teams. No AD was going to fire him after his performance during his first 3 seasons.

The trajectory of the program under Butch did not start to reverse until the 2016 South Carolina loss, and IMO he sealed his eventual fate after losing to Vandy later that year. So you didn't like him from the beginning - good for you - but no AD anywhere was going to cut him loose after that third season.

 

[Volfan76]

Butch was a decent coach with Bajakian and Jancek making him look good. Now, no decent assistant coach will answer his phone calls.

Jancek helped him. Bajakian was very mediocre. Go check his offensive rankings at NW.

 

[Firebirdparts]

Based on the number of times he's posted on this topic, I don't think reasoning, or whatever you want to call that, is a good use of your time.

 

[sjt18]

...and a competent AD would have ascertained, correctly, that the program was ascending in his first 3 years. Butch wasn't doing special things, like Heupel did last year, but from 2013-16 the program was not stagnating or regressing.

No it wasn't "ascending". Jones brought in some talent. You can say it fell in his lap in the form of homers like Hurd and legacies or you can believe he was some kind of wunder-recruiter who forgot how to recruit after two classes. Either way, UT had more talent in years 3 and 4 relative to competition than they had had in many years. At least 2005 if not before.

In the end, even the recruiting was an illusion. He had a disproportionate number of underachievers and outright busts.

Just like he did with his first two rosters, he underperformed that talent. An executive, CEO, AD, or anyone at that level of leadership has to be able to see what things happen because of someone like Jones... and what things happen in spite of him.

Butch inherited a mess from Dooley and made incremental, measured improvements over 3 years.

Incremental improvements? How do you convince yourself of those kinds of myths? He was carried by talent... partly Dooley's talent... and then collapsed. Dooley was a lazy recruiter. But what he left Jones was far from a "mess". He had an OL with 5 NFL caliber starters. He had two future NFL CBs. He had a future NFL DT. He had two NFL caliber LBs. Plus a bunch of other guys with talent to fill in between. He didn't leave the empty cupboard that he left Pruitt or that Pruitt left Heupel.

He shouldn't have blown leads to OU, UF, and Arkansas in year 3 but we were only favored in one of those games (Arky, I think). OU went on to win the Big 12 and make the CFP that year. UF went on to have a decent year and win the SEC East. None of those losses were to bad teams. No AD was going to fire him after his performance during his first 3 seasons.

Again I have to ask why you are so vested in defending his incompetence?

The trajectory of the program under Butch did not start to reverse until the 2016 South Carolina loss, and IMO he sealed his eventual fate after losing to Vandy later that year. So you didn't like him from the beginning - good for you - but no AD anywhere was going to cut him loose after that third season.

Well, yes. As Wisconsin just demonstrated with a short hook. There are ADs with the intelligence and wisdom to see the trajectory and issues within a program before they start resulting in more losses.

Jones was a boob. He never should have been hired and even a 2nd level deep look at his "record" would have revealed that. But you can lay the primary responsibility at the feet of the AD and the powers that came together to first hire him and then keep him.

If you think I am wrong then genuinely ask yourself where UT football would have been had someone like Heupel been hired after Jones' 3rd year with these guys coming back- Dobbs, Hurd, Kamara, Kongbo, Tuttle, Malone, Kelly, Gaulden, Martin, Barnett, Callaway, Mosley, Jennings, Croom, Warrior, Taylor, Reeves-Maybin, Sutton, BerryX2, and a boat load of other talent that Jones squandered.

 

[05_never_again]

No it wasn't "ascending". Jones brought in some talent. You can say it fell in his lap in the form of homers like Hurd and legacies or you can believe he was some kind of wunder-recruiter who forgot how to recruit after two classes. Either way, UT had more talent in years 3 and 4 relative to competition than they had had in many years. At least 2005 if not before.

In the end, even the recruiting was an illusion. He had a disproportionate number of underachievers and outright busts.

Just like he did with his first two rosters, he underperformed that talent. An executive, CEO, AD, or anyone at that level of leadership has to be able to see what things happen because of someone like Jones... and what things happen in spite of him.

Incremental improvements? How do you convince yourself of those kinds of myths? He was carried by talent... partly Dooley's talent... and then collapsed. Dooley was a lazy recruiter. But what he left Jones was far from a "mess". He had an OL with 5 NFL caliber starters. He had two future NFL CBs. He had a future NFL DT. He had two NFL caliber LBs. Plus a bunch of other guys with talent to fill in between. He didn't leave the empty cupboard that he left Pruitt or that Pruitt left Heupel.

Again I have to ask why you are so vested in defending his incompetence?


Well, yes. As Wisconsin just demonstrated with a short hook. There are ADs with the intelligence and wisdom to see the trajectory and issues within a program before they start resulting in more losses.

Jones was a boob. He never should have been hired and even a 2nd level deep look at his "record" would have revealed that. But you can lay the primary responsibility at the feet of the AD and the powers that came together to first hire him and then keep him.

If you think I am wrong then genuinely ask yourself where UT football would have been had someone like Heupel been hired after Jones' 3rd year with these guys coming back- Dobbs, Hurd, Kamara, Kongbo, Tuttle, Malone, Kelly, Gaulden, Martin, Barnett, Callaway, Mosley, Jennings, Croom, Warrior, Taylor, Reeves-Maybin, Sutton, BerryX2, and a boat load of other talent that Jones squandered.

Dude - it's just a fact the program was on the upswing. He inherited a 5-7 team and in 3 years had them at 8-4, a couple of plays from 10-2. They were much better in 2015 than in 2012.

Nobody here is saying Butch is a good coach. He was a underperformer. It doesn't mean he didn't make the team better for a time though.

I think you want to make "I knew Butch wouldn't make it here from Day 1" to be your claim to fame here. Well, congratulations. I just said what you wanted to hear. It's just factually incorrect to say that for a time the program improved under him though. Butch improving the program yet still being a big underachiever are not mutually exclusive.

 

[hUTch2002]

Jones was a terrible coach and you had to make yourself willfully ignorant to miss it. He shouldn't have been hired. He should not have gotten a 4th or 5th year. That's no "armchair" QB thing. I said consistently that he had underperformed the talent he had. He did in every single year.

I "don't like him"... and I can absolutely assure you that is NOT skewing my opinion. The question I have is why you feel compelled to defend him. He was incompetent. He was a walking, talking cliche recording.

A competent AD would not have looked at him simply through the lens of wins. A competent AD would have looked at the direction of the program, how he compared to the coaches he competed against (who was outcoaching him and why), the quality of his work, the circumstances, the advantages/disadvantages, and then judged him on what was reasonable. Six or 7 wins was MORE than reasonable in the first year. It was reasonable to accept a mediocre season in year 2 due to youth. It is not reasonable to accept his in game coaching incompetence in year 3 vs OU, UF, and Arkansas. He pretty much had to get in the way to prevent that 4th year team from winning 10+ games on talent alone... and he did.

He was terrible at developing players. He was terrible "in game". He was terrible at building a culture. He was terrible at managing players. Other than that... you're right, he was a great coach that should have continued to get "more time"... maybe he should have been given 5 more years?

Heupel may still fail. There are things he controls which I think he's done well with. There are things he doesn't control. But Heupel has done far more with far less than Jones ever did. Heupel is the model for a coach that can turn UT around. There is no amount of time given to Jones that would have led to a turnaround. But I suspect you were among those clamoring to give him "more time"... as if somehow what was failing would work if just given time.

You have reading comprehension issues. I’m not defending him and I certainly never said he was a great coach. I just don’t see how any AD could justify firing a coach who improved by 2 games two straight years and expect to ever hire another coach. I agree Heupel has looked good but still could fail. Then again, what does “fail” even mean? Our answers could different just like our views on what should have happened to Jones after 3 years does. He was everything you claim but his record improved despite his flaws just like sometimes you do everything right and still lose. We will just have to disagree here though and I seriously doubt you can find a post of yours from back between Jones’s 3rd and 4th seasons that said he should be fired but it ultimately doesn’t matter. You had concerns and I get that. He didn’t get fired and any AD would be roasted for firing him. He’s still a schmuck, walking cliche as you accurately said and isn’t a good coach. Discussion over. Moving on.

 

[volinbham]

Looks to me like you're still holding a grunge against Butch for UT's failings.

always thought grunge was overrated; too much flannel

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Dude - it's just a fact the program was on the upswing. He inherited a 5-7 team and in 3 years had them at 8-4, a couple of plays from 10-2. They were much better in 2015 than in 2012.

Nobody here is saying Butch is a good coach. He was a underperformer. It doesn't mean he didn't make the team better for a time though.

I think you want to make "I knew Butch wouldn't make it here from Day 1" to be your claim to fame here. Well, congratulations. I just said what you wanted to hear. It's just factually incorrect to say that for a time the program improved under him though. Butch improving the program yet still being a big underachiever are not mutually exclusive.

The guys actually played hard for Butch his first couple of years. We beat a top 10 South Carolina team with Worley at QB. We took UGA to overtime. I think Butch won every bowl game he coached here, plus wins over UGA, Florida. If you fire that coach then you’re going to make your program less appealing to better coaches. They’ll think, wait a minute, the last guy beat Florida, UGA, took Bama to the end and has won bowl games, and they fired him? No way I want that heat from day 1.

All that said, Butch is a clown.

 

[LouderVol]

No it wasn't "ascending". Jones brought in some talent. You can say it fell in his lap in the form of homers like Hurd and legacies or you can believe he was some kind of wunder-recruiter who forgot how to recruit after two classes. Either way, UT had more talent in years 3 and 4 relative to competition than they had had in many years. At least 2005 if not before.

In the end, even the recruiting was an illusion. He had a disproportionate number of underachievers and outright busts.

Just like he did with his first two rosters, he underperformed that talent. An executive, CEO, AD, or anyone at that level of leadership has to be able to see what things happen because of someone like Jones... and what things happen in spite of him.

Incremental improvements? How do you convince yourself of those kinds of myths? He was carried by talent... partly Dooley's talent... and then collapsed. Dooley was a lazy recruiter. But what he left Jones was far from a "mess". He had an OL with 5 NFL caliber starters. He had two future NFL CBs. He had a future NFL DT. He had two NFL caliber LBs. Plus a bunch of other guys with talent to fill in between. He didn't leave the empty cupboard that he left Pruitt or that Pruitt left Heupel.

Again I have to ask why you are so vested in defending his incompetence?


Well, yes. As Wisconsin just demonstrated with a short hook. There are ADs with the intelligence and wisdom to see the trajectory and issues within a program before they start resulting in more losses.

Jones was a boob. He never should have been hired and even a 2nd level deep look at his "record" would have revealed that. But you can lay the primary responsibility at the feet of the AD and the powers that came together to first hire him and then keep him.

If you think I am wrong then genuinely ask yourself where UT football would have been had someone like Heupel been hired after Jones' 3rd year with these guys coming back- Dobbs, Hurd, Kamara, Kongbo, Tuttle, Malone, Kelly, Gaulden, Martin, Barnett, Callaway, Mosley, Jennings, Croom, Warrior, Taylor, Reeves-Maybin, Sutton, BerryX2, and a boat load of other talent that Jones squandered.

At best Butch had the 12th most talented roster, in 2015. That's 247s composite ranking, if you have another 3rd party reference we can go by that. Plenty more NFL talent on the teams higher than us before you try and argue it away as HS rankings.

This years 12th most talented team, Miami. ended 5-7.

And before you resort back to your incredibly lazy argument of "defending Butch", he still sucks, but there was no reason to fire him in 15 or 16.