How did it all come to this?

[gule]

Hey, I'd be the first one in line at the help holly pack party, but the whining and moaning from some of you "fans" is ridiculous.

There are still games to play, tourneys to win(yea, not likely) and good times to be had this season.

 

[therealitytheory]

Hey, I'd be the first one in line at the help holly pack party, but the whining and moaning from some of you "fans" is ridiculous.

There are still games to play, tourneys to win(yea, not likely) and good times to be had this season.

You contradict yourself, smart guy. heh

 

[LadyVol1908]

You contradict yourself, smart guy. heh

I was just thinking that!

 

[Scissor Hands]

The problem is NOT the team or the coaching staff BUT it is those new NIKE uniforms!!!

:crazy:

 

[teacherdean]

The downward slide of the Lady Vol Basketball program began when Pat decided to end the regular season rivalry with UCONN in 2007. From that day on, it has been much easier to recruit against UT. For the first 30 years of her coaching career, Pat's success was due primarily to having the best recruits year in and year out. John Wooden cemented his legacy at UCLA in a similar fashion. She didn't have to develop individual offensive talent, that was taken care of by the high school and AAU coaches. She had to do the heavy lifting and convince them of the importance of defense and rebounding, no small task, to round them in to championship material. And that she did.

When she ended the rivalry, to the rest of the country, it looked like the spoiled kid taking his ball and going home when he no longer got his way on everything. That has been spun a million different ways but the end result is what it is. Opposing coaches ask the recruits if they want to play for a program that is afraid of nobody and takes on all comers or one that picks and chooses it's battles based on personal feelings which could be misunderstood as a weakness. Since Candice Parker, UCONN has had the pick of the litter every year, and when their bench couldn't hold them all the rest of the country jumped in and started beefing up their programs. CHW is still living in the pre-Candice era. UT never had to work at recruiting the best because they were all knocking the door down wanting to be a part of greatness. All the staff had to do was sort them out and say thanks but no thanks to the ones they didn't need. Now the line at the door is dwindling a little more every year and we get to 2016 and low and behold, 0 recruits committed. CHW doesn't know any other way other than what she learned from Pat for all those years. It was becoming apparent that it was no longer working for Pat before she had to retire, and it sure isn't going to work now for CHW. The basketball landscape has changed, but as stated before by others, CHW is still coaching in the 80's and 90's.

The Lady Vol Legacy was built brick by brick by the GREATEST WOMEN"S BASKETBALL COACH of all time. If it wasn't for what she did for the game, Geno wouldn't have even had an option in coaching. He'd probably be running an Italian restaurant some where in Philadelphia. Unfortunately with the evolution of the game (Thanks to Pat), the Lady Vols need a complete transfusion. They need to get rid of ALL the old blood and bring in some new. I totally feel for Dave Hart and the place he inherited between the rock and the hard spot. No offense intended, but CHW is too old of a dog to learn new tricks. The devoted Lady Vol fans on this board, every last one of them, hurt for what has happened to their beloved basketball program, but they're just going to have to be patient until the boosters give the AD the green light to pull the trigger. Root for the players because they are giving their all for you.

While I agree with most of what you said, but wasn't the UCONN/Tennessee series stopped by Pat over Genno's unscrupulous recruitment of Maya Moore by using his association with ESPN. He was amonished by the NCAA.

Genno changed the way you recruit talent that was only being done in the men's basketball game. Before Genno, recruitment was an honor game in women's basketball but no more. Look at the classless coach at Ohio State, he does not care how he gets his talent. Look at Mulkey's Baylor recruiting, she has been admonished once or twice for recruitment violations.

Another thing that changed, we can no longer recruit players by saying we are the Lady Vols. I doubt many coaches used, or use, the fact that Tennessee stopped a series because they didn't get their way, not saying some do not use such a thing, to recruit players away from the Lady Vols. Pat was old school and did not use questionable practices to recruit. She did not have to because she could recruit based upon the success of the Lady Vols. Another recruiting issue is parody and the fact that more young women play the game. When I was in high school few big schools had girls' basketball teams. Young girls no longer associate being a jock to being gay. That stigma has come and gone. AAU basketball programs and other programs, allow young ladies to profect their skills over a longer period of time. In addition coaching have vastly improved in the last 25 years.

The biggest problem I see is that we have not changed how we recruit. Holly is still living in the glory days when today, the question is what have you done lately. The way she fumbles and stutters during her interviews would led one to think she is too introverted. She also seem to be a tad too nervous. She is not impressive as a coach and when she uses vocal expression. It also appears that Holly is trying to recruit nothing but 4 or 5 stars, rather then taking a 3 star with major upsides. This staff seems lacking in the ability to improve the skill set of players. We throw Russell under the bus quite often, but is it her or the lack of coaching?

 

[teacherdean]

i continue to believe the assistants bear some of this responsibility! they should be recruiting better, teaching fundamentals better, and getting these players in the right mindset!

I agree but who is the leader of the coaching staff, the head coach. It starts and ends with Holly's ability to manage the team as a whole. Let's face it, Holly seems to be a good person but not much of a good coach. She does not have what it takes to coach today's players.

 

[OldMikey]

She needs assistants who can recruit (n signees so far) like she and DeMoss did for Pat. I do not care if they are from high school or the best JC coaches, if they are UT legends or not. It starts there. This is her first group, which did not sign with Pat as coach. What does that say :mf_surrender:

 

[YankeeVol]

The GOAT is Auriemma

 

[VOL720]

Hey, I'd be the first one in line at the help holly pack party, but the whining and moaning from some of you "fans" is ridiculous.

There are still games to play, tourneys to win(yea, not likely) and good times to be had this season.

I get your point, but this was said months ago and things have gotten worse! I don't see things getting any better with this staff this season or next season.

 

[VAfan]

We can't blame everything on Geno. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Holly was turned down when she tried to resume the series - Geno wanted UT to apologize to Maya Moore and her mother as well.

The class before, Geno got the #1 and #2 players in Brenna Stewart and Mo Jefferson.

We also got the #1 and 2 players in the next class in Russell and DD.

I wished that could have been reversed. Just got to recruit the "right" type of players and not what their ranking is.

 

[TNnative]

Is it answer 3. The fans are putting too much pressure on the coaches and players? Holly said to be patient, but I would like to know how long I'll have to wait. Was she talking months, years, decades?

Call me crazy, but I was mostly behind Holly. But when she and Kyra felt their time was wisely spent asking fans to be patient? That was time they should have been spending talking to their players about how they are playing. That was such a weak gesture. I love the lady Vols, but watching right now is just too painful.

It's time to get it right, or allow someone else to give it a go. The good news is there are plenty of former lady Vols in coaching. It might hurt them to replace Holly, but some would take the challenge. Maybe one of them can stare these girls down like Pat did Marciniak. Michelle lived through it, so will they.

 

[jimallvol]

We can't blame everything on Geno. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Holly was turned down when she tried to resume the series - Geno wanted UT to apologize to Maya Moore and her mother as well.

The class before, Geno got the #1 and #2 players in Brenna Stewart and Mo Jefferson.

We also got the #1 and 2 players in the next class in Russell and DD.

I wished that could have been reversed. Just got to recruit the "right" type of players and not what their ranking is.

I dont get to follow the Lady Vols much, so What's the deal with Maya Moore and her mother?

 

[Unimane]

There isn't more parity in today's game. It's still a small circle of teams winning all the time. We just aren't in that group anymore and that's 100% a result of the leadership for the program.

 

[UCMiami]

Armchair - nice historical perspective. And Pat recognized the issue with her 'offense' and tried to learn and teach a motion offense by meeting up with various other coaches, including Harry Paretta from Villanova as I recall in the early 2000s.

I would add something else to the historic perspective - the SEC was (and is) a bastion of strong WCBB programs in which Pat ruled supreme for years. But the other programs that challenged were built along similar lines with 'old school' coaches of Pat's ilk and who like Pat stayed on for years. UGA and Vandy for example had 30yr HCs. And the good programs all played a similar style, and most up and comers tried to emulate the TN program style - emulation is the greatest form of flattery and all. So not only was TN being very successful, but within conference they weren't being challenged by innovation and out of conference they still had more talent. The first SEC team to really challenge the old school of basketball was probably LSU and Pokey in the early 2000s- and that corresponded to Uconn outside the conference, and was the point at which Pat actually started looked for new innovation in her system.
I don't agree with everything in the OP but it brings up some interesting points as well. I would say the change that cancelling the Uconn series brought about had not much to do with any negative perception of TN, but with the positive change to the competitive landscape. TN/Uconn sucked the air out of any other WCBB game - the question each year was 'when does the game happen', and after it happened 'what will happen when they meet in the NCAAs'. No other 'rivalry' compared or could get much publicity. With it's disappearance media folks had to look around for other meaningful stories - Uconn/ND, or Baylor/ND/Uconn, or Duke/MD or TN/SC took on more energy. That helped recruiting for a bunch of other schools, but the recruiting had already started that expansion a number of earlier.

The complaints about Holly I think are legitimate - she is old school, and she seems to have surrounded herself with the same type of assistants. And not unlike Vandy and UGA that really doesn't cut it with the modern game. The balancing of talent across schools, and the quality of recruits coming out of HS who really do need more teaching than those of 20 years ago - they play too many games and have too little real coaching with the expansion of the traveling AAU circuit. UGA finally cut ties to the past and it is probably time for Vandy and TN to consider the same move. TN is a long way from fading into oblivion, but it is also a long way from really challenging for an NC.

 

[Amorphousblob]

All of this is well and good, but until we have an AD who cares about women's athletics, it means nothing and nothing will happen. Mediocrity is fine with Dave Hart in women's sports. I wouldn't look for any change any time soon.

 

[Bellevue vol]

there are 348 different Ncaa teams that you Negavols should go root for if you'd like to abandon the Lady Vols.

my blood still runs only orange.

It's fine that you want to keep Holly, but Negavols? Really? Were the fans that wanted to fire Dooley Negavols? If so, there were a lot of Negavols out there.

 

[Advol]

All of this is well and good, but until we have an AD who cares about women's athletics, it means nothing and nothing will happen. Mediocrity is fine with Dave Hart in women's sports. I wouldn't look for any change any time soon.

DING DING DING We have a winner!
Hart is lovin' this. :hi: