How do you justify this lunacy?

#177
#177
SWIL said:
Universal health care isn't working?? Are you sure? Our "Socialist" allies must all be idiots!
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their economies are also in shambles and some of them are moving away from a completely socialized system.

if you think that the US healthcare system is so poor, why don't you travel to Canada or France and tear your ACL completely in two. Two years later when you finally get your MRI, you'll be placed on another waiting list for your surgery.

45 million uninsured Americans? 12 million of that figure are illegal aliens, several million more are the insured children of uninsured adults, a few more million are self-insured independently wealthy, and still more aren't insured for religious reasons.

We have the best medical system in the world. It's access to that system that needs to be tweaked, but having the government take control of both access and care is not the way to fix things.
 
#178
#178
http://http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MaggieGallagher/2008/02/27/the_truth_about_nationalized_healthcare?page=full&comments=true


Here's the other dirty little secret: National health insurance is going to cost Brandy and other taxpayers a whole lot more than either Hillary or Obama admits. Just ask Gov. Deval Patrick in Massachusetts, where just two years into operation, the state's mandatory health insurance plan is already costing $400 million more than budgeted.

Meanwhile we have a Medicare system that is going to go bankrupt.

Here's a question neither Hillary nor Barack will answer: How can we justify spending billions to insure the Brandys of the worlds, when we haven't yet secured the health care financing for our existing promises to senior citizens?
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#179
#179
MG1968 said:
their economies are also in shambles and some of them are moving away from a completely socialized system.

if you think that the US healthcare system is so poor, why don't you travel to Canada or France and tear your ACL completely in two. Two years later when you finally get your MRI, you'll be placed on another waiting list for your surgery.

45 million uninsured Americans? 12 million of that figure are illegal aliens, several million more are the insured children of uninsured adults, a few more million are self-insured independently wealthy, and still more aren't insured for religious reasons.

We have the best medical system in the world. It's access to that system that needs to be tweaked, but having the government take control of both access and care is not the way to fix things.
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Exactly... as I've stated several times before, what good is UHC if I'm dead before I can use it?
 
#180
#180
I don't understand why we would want UHC here. We have the best healthcare in the world, why change that? Im sorry, but I don't want to wait 1-3 yrs. for a surgery if I need it.
 
#181
#181
Oh yea, good point robbins, we do have the best healthcare system in the world. That part often gets left out in this discussion. It just happens to cost people some money out of their pocket. Some find that unacceptable. You mean services and goods costs money? Aghast!
 
#182
#182
VolDad said:
Please show me where you have read that?

Constitution for the United States of America
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VolDad, did you even bother to read the rest of my post? All the government has to do to level the field is to equally protect the right of each citizen to pursue and protect his/her life, liberty and property. That is the government's job, and its only job. The problem with Socialists is that they want to try to level the players and not just the field. There will always be those who can run faster, jump higher, throw farther, etc. Those things cannot be equalized by the govt, but that is what Socialists want to do. Bottom line, there is a difference between leveling the field and trying to level the players. And I will stand by the assertion that the govt should level the playing field by protecting everyone's basic rights equally.
 
#185
#185
tim said:
Wonder why the Latino vote is overwhelmingly in support of Obama? Like 61%.
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Traditionally liberal voters who have no idea what is at stake and don't care. They think he will pave the way to amnesty, which is probably true.
 
#186
#186
SWIL said:
Universal health care isn't working?? Are you sure? Our "Socialist" allies must all be idiots!
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There's a hidden cost not showing up in the numbers. That cost is the cost of medical innovation. There is a considerable free-rider effect where medical advances developed in a system such as ours (U.S.) are appropriated by other systems.

I'll try to find some literature on this but simply put, if we adopted the same approach, the overall advancement of medical technology world-wide would fall.
 
#187
#187
Some commentary addressing the "innovation cost" argument I was trying to make above.

Poor U.S. Scores in Health Care Don’t Measure Nobels and Innovation - New York Times

This innovation-rich environment stems from the money spent on American health care and also from the richer and more competitive American universities. The American government could use its size, or use the law, to bargain down health care prices, as many European governments have done. In the short run, this would save money but in the longer run it would cost lives.


Medical innovations improve health and life expectancy in all wealthy countries, not just in the United States. That is one reason American citizens do not live longer. Furthermore, the lucrative United States health care market enhances research and development abroad and not just at home.
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The real point here is that defining "quality" in healthcare is quite subjective. The WHO measure is but one way.

Simply bringing the government into HC will not solve the problems and if we adopted the European approach, everyone would arguably suffer as costs are driven down by reducing innovation mechanisms..
 
#189
#189
MG1968 said:
their economies are also in shambles and some of them are moving away from a completely socialized system.

if you think that the US healthcare system is so poor, why don't you travel to Canada or France and tear your ACL completely in two. Two years later when you finally get your MRI, you'll be placed on another waiting list for your surgery.

45 million uninsured Americans? 12 million of that figure are illegal aliens, several million more are the insured children of uninsured adults, a few more million are self-insured independently wealthy, and still more aren't insured for religious reasons.

We have the best medical system in the world. It's access to that system that needs to be tweaked, but having the government take control of both access and care is not the way to fix things.
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Do you have any solid evidence to back up these two statements?
 
#191
#191
VolDad said:
No……. I couldn’t. After I read that sentence I did a spittake over my monitor and could not read the rest.
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Do you have a problem with the govt equally protecting the rights of all to pursue and protect life, liberty and property? Does that make you want to do a "spittake over your moniter"?
 
#195
#195
SWIL said:
Do you have any solid evidence to back up these two statements?
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you'll pardon this first link, BBC Learning English | French economic changes ahead

France's unemployment rate hasn't fallen below 8 percent in a quarter of a century and its economic growth rate during 2006 was the slowest of any nation in the European Union, except Portugal.
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and here:

Health Care Lie: '47 Million Uninsured Americans'

So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.



Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.
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#197
#197
BigPapaVol said:
when you boil the arguments down to individuals, your emotional garbage works well and the individual CEO appears that he can easily afford it. But that is as intellectually dishonest as humanly possible. It's not about that CEO nor about the individual who lost his job. It's about sweeping policies that impact the nation as a whole and make long term impacts on everyone. The difference is enormous.

Nobody is arguing that they shouldn't pay more tax. They absolutely do pay more. They shouldn't pay more as a % than anyone else does. Otherwise, it's pure socialism, which would be an absolute deterrent in the oil industry. The biggest income tax providers for 2008 are going to be oil companies and those who own shares of oil companies. Both are going to get shelled, even under the current policies. Singling them out to pay more is simply nothing akin to capitalism. Call it what you will, but capitalism doesn't fit. Starting down that slippery slope is an enormous deterrent to risk taking in business, which is the heart of the economy that makes our country the economic marvel it is.

As a shareholder, I would fully expect everyone at Exxon to find a way to minimize expenses and maximize profits, rather than being in the social engineering business. Let's leave the social engineering on the part of corporations to folks in China.
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I didn't read this entire thread so if this is covered, my bad. However, the tax % number is also hugely misleading. Let's make sure we are on the same page -- IF you are saying there should be a flat tax (so let's assume 20% for ease) and therefore companies with more profits pay more taxes -- this is entirely false. The U.S. tax code lives on write-offs, tax shelters, and many other tax avoiding rules (all totally legal). The more money you have, the more shelters are available. Therefore, after write-offs the true tax % of a larger company would be significantly lower than a smaller one due to sheer ability to create more tax shelters.

And by the way, Republicans having to stoop to calling lDems Socialists just shows how bad off Republicans really are after this past administration....
 
#198
#198
jamesd1628 said:
Do you have a problem with the govt equally protecting the rights of all to pursue and protect life, liberty and property? Does that make you want to do a "spittake over your moniter"?
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Here is what I think.

I think with rare exception it is a level playing field (despite our government). To be successful requires following a few simple rules.

1) Stay in school and get your education (even if it is only a high school diploma). An education is offered to everyone.

2) Do not get pregnant or get your girlfriend pregnant. Condoms are cheap. Do not have kids you cannot afford.

3) Do not get hooked on drugs or alcohol.

4) After you get your degree, get a job. Even if the job it is only an entry level position. Work hard and get promoted or go to another employer who will pay you more. Repeat the cycle.

Now, do I believe some people will still slip between the cracks due to no fault of their own? Absolutely. That is what we have family, church, and charities for.

But for the most part, each and every one of use is exactly where we are in life due to the choices we have made. It is not governments’ role to reward people for making bad choices.
 
#199
#199
VolDad said:
Here is what I think.

I think with rare exception it is a level playing field (despite our government). To be successful requires following a few simple rules.

1) Stay in school and get your education (even if it is only a high school diploma). An education is offered to everyone.

2) Do not get pregnant or get your girlfriend pregnant. Condoms are cheap. Do not have kids you cannot afford.

3) Do not get hooked on drugs or alcohol.

4) After you get your degree, get a job. Even if the job it is only an entry level position. Work hard and get promoted or go to another employer who will pay you more. Repeat the cycle.

Now, do I believe some people will still slip between the cracks due to no fault of their own? Absolutely. That is what we have family, church, and charities for.

But for the most part, each and every one of use is exactly where we are in life due to the choices we have made. It is not governments’ role to reward people for making bad choices.
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Is that what you think I'm arguing for? God Lord, man, try to pay attention.
 
#200
#200
VolByBirth said:
I didn't read this entire thread so if this is covered, my bad. However, the tax % number is also hugely misleading. Let's make sure we are on the same page -- IF you are saying there should be a flat tax (so let's assume 20% for ease) and therefore companies with more profits pay more taxes -- this is entirely false. The U.S. tax code lives on write-offs, tax shelters, and many other tax avoiding rules (all totally legal). The more money you have, the more shelters are available. Therefore, after write-offs the true tax % of a larger company would be significantly lower than a smaller one due to sheer ability to create more tax shelters.

And by the way, Republicans having to stoop to calling lDems Socialists just shows how bad off Republicans really are after this past administration....
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Two things:

1. Your argument about flat taxes is wrong because flat tax proposals include the elimination of the write-offs, shelters, etc., to which you are referring. One of the main purposes of these proposals (in addition, obviously, to making the code more fair) is to simplify the code, including the elimination of the complexity of write-offs, etc.

2. So you are taking the position that Dems in general, and BHO specifically, are not Socialists? Finally, someone stepping up to the plate to make that bold assertion. I guess the debate on that point can finally begin.
 
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