How labor unions prolonged the great depression.

[gsvol]

Pre-Depression-era growth and prosperity did not return to the private sector until the early 1950s, when the spread of state right-to-work laws prohibiting forced union membership and dues greatly reduced the detrimental effects of the Wagner Act.

The U.S. has just experienced another stock market crash, and Barack Obama, the candidate now favored to be the next president, is in favor of what amounts to a new Wagner Act.

If the mislabeled "Employee Free Choice Act," becomes law, it will likely have a similar effect on the economy as the original Wagner Act, transforming what could have been a recovery into a lengthy, deep recession, or worse.

"I owe those unions," Mr. Obama explained in his 2006 political memoir, "The Audacity of Hope." "When their leaders call, I do my best to call them back right away. I don't consider this corrupting in any way . . ."

 

[orangeblooded2]

Pre-Depression-era growth and prosperity did not return to the private sector until the early 1950s, when the spread of state right-to-work laws prohibiting forced union membership and dues greatly reduced the detrimental effects of the Wagner Act.

The U.S. has just experienced another stock market crash, and Barack Obama, the candidate now favored to be the next president, is in favor of what amounts to a new Wagner Act.

If the mislabeled "Employee Free Choice Act," becomes law, it will likely have a similar effect on the economy as the original Wagner Act, transforming what could have been a recovery into a lengthy, deep recession, or worse.

"I owe those unions," Mr. Obama explained in his 2006 political memoir, "The Audacity of Hope." "When their leaders call, I do my best to call them back right away. I don't consider this corrupting in any way . . ."

= :twocents: + :sick: = :crap2:

 

[gsvol]

= :twocents: + :sick: = :crap2:

Care to decipher your missive for the more smillie challenged among us?

 

[orangeblooded2]

It's my understanding of history that the Industrialization during WWII & the Korean war is what brought about Growth and prosperity.

The Wagner act was passed in principle to stop the bloodshed of the previous 80 years.Robber barons,who were literally founded on the backs of slaves,circa 1850 (John Astor).were ruthless to the men of which they stood on the backs of.

The term Robber baron was not coined until the year before the passage of The Wagner Act.Because of the violence coming out of the great depression.Apparently it was becoming harder to keep the murders and violence secret from the rest of the country.Because Baron Hurst was losing absolute control over the press.
It was one of the best bills ever written for American workers.The Employee Free Choice Act enhances and straightens the wagner bill.


Here are the facts of the bill and why the bill is so important.So begins a new age.


Employee Free Choice Act: Key Facts

 

[MG1968]

oh, sure, direct us to the AFL/CIO to give us the straight dope on the Employee Free Choice Act.

 

[BigPapaVol]

It's my understanding of history that the Industrialization during WWII & the Korean war is what brought about Growth and prosperity.

The Wagner act was passed in principle to stop the bloodshed of the previous 80 years.Robber barons,who were literally founded on the backs of slaves,circa 1850 (John Astor).were ruthless to the men of which they stood on the backs of.

The term Robber baron was not coined until the year before the passage of The Wagner Act.Because of the violence coming out of the great depression.Apparently it was becoming harder to keep the murders and violence secret from the rest of the country.Because Baron Hurst was losing absolute control over the press.
It was one of the best bills ever written for American workers.The Employee Free Choice Act enhances and straightens the wagner bill.


Here are the facts of the bill and why the bill is so important.So begins a new age.


Employee Free Choice Act: Key Facts

I have to assume that your pointing out the iron fisted control of the media in those days made unions necessary, means that you now see them as nothing but pure frictional expense in the business world.

 

[orangeblooded2]

I have to assume that your pointing out the iron fisted control of the media in those days made unions necessary, means that you now see them as nothing but pure frictional expense in the business world.

BPV. Before I can answer,Can you rephrase the question,I can not grasp the intended question.

 

[orangeblooded2]

oh, sure, direct us to the AFL/CIO to give us the straight dope on the Employee Free Choice Act.

Straight up from my perspective,yes.

Do you have a different perspective?Post the link of you choice.

 

[gsvol]

It's my understanding of history that the Industrialization during WWII & the Korean war is what brought about Growth and prosperity.

The Wagner act was passed in principle to stop the bloodshed of the previous 80 years.Robber barons,who were literally founded on the backs of slaves,circa 1850 (John Astor).were ruthless to the men of which they stood on the backs of.

The term Robber baron was not coined until the year before the passage of The Wagner Act.Because of the violence coming out of the great depression.Apparently it was becoming harder to keep the murders and violence secret from the rest of the country.Because Baron Hurst was losing absolute control over the press.
It was one of the best bills ever written for American workers.The Employee Free Choice Act enhances and straightens the wagner bill.


Here are the facts of the bill and why the bill is so important.So begins a new age.


Employee Free Choice Act: Key Facts

I'm not sure but I think 'robber baron' was used very early in the twentieth century and perhaps back in the 19th century as well but that isn't important.

By new age I suppose you to mean complete control by 'big brother?'

Some questions for you;

1. Are you or have you ever been a member of any union?

2. Have you ever had to deal with a corrupt union organizer thug coming into your place of work, interfere with and try to intimidate your workers and threaten you during work hours??

I know a lot about both sides of this story dating back to WWII, I've been on both sides and can tell you quite a bit that you won't find in history books.

The 'Free Choice Act' is just an invitation to union intimidation and thuggery.

“Free choice” is the worst kind of Orwellian language. If EFCA becomes law, then the secret ballot traditionally used to determine unionization votes in this country would be replaced by “card checks.” When the union comes to your business, asking you to join, you’ll be asked to check “Yes” or “No” on a card. In public. And if union history is any guide, the man holding the card under your nose might be large, threatening, and unlikely to take kindly to a “No.”

Witness the productivity of Toyota (or Honda, or BMW, etc.) factories in this country versus General Motors. And it’s not just the pay — Wagner Act-inspired adversarialism between management and labor guarantees stringent work rules that have all but put Detroit out of business.

The issue here isn’t just economic, it’s also civil rights. It took decades of hard work to bring secret ballots to all our elections — and for the first time in modern history, a hard-won right could be stripped away from American workers.

EFCA proponents claim that their bill would make it easier for workers to form unions. That’s incorrect. Workers already have the ability to unionize wherever they see fit, using the same secret ballot they enjoy using in any other election. What EFCA would accomplish is to make is easier for unions to intimidate unwilling workers into accepting union domination. That’s not collective bargaining; that’s collective coercion.

One problem with the "free choice act" is that it will run into problems with states that have open shop laws in effect.

The worst problem of the Free Choice Act is that in effect will give less of a free choice to the American worker.

Another thing is that it will drive corporations into off shoring their manufacturing plants to foreign countries.

The Obama administration is following the script laid down by George Orwell in ‘1984’. In that book, the Ministry of Truth rewrote and reversed everything to suit Big Brother’s purposes. The slogan, ‘War is Peace’ is an example.

Now the Dems call the removal of the secret ballot, “The Employee Free Choice Act” and the censorship of dissention “The Fairness Doctine”.

 

[BigPapaVol]

BPV. Before I can answer,Can you rephrase the question,I can not grasp the intended question.

sorry. You pointed out that control of the press was a huge driver of the need for Unions. Now that the press is omnipresent and overly bent on breaking the big story, the need for the Union to protect against those dastardly capitalists has diminished greatly, no?

 

[orangeblooded2]

GSVOL.

The answers.

1.Yes as a member and Shop Steward for 5 years-a real educational experience that I would not repeat again,and that i am still paying for twenty years later.

2.No

1A.Given a choice for the source of intimidation and thuggery.I welcome the unions. Compared to my life experiences of the last 20 years at the hands of corporations with little or no regard for basic rights.The harassment and intentional purposeful infliction of emotional distress that even attorneys are finding to be beyond their scope of legal experience.
When and if unions ever take it that far then I might accept the argument for intimidation and thuggery.

As far as corporations going to other countries.

I have a feeling this is going to change through tax breaks or by law.


If all companies would tread people fairly.These laws would be unnecessary.These laws are to try to ensure that they do.Which from my perspective is Euphoric.

 

[orangeblooded2]

sorry. You pointed out that control of the press was a huge driver of the need for Unions. Now that the press is omnipresent and overly bent on breaking the big story, the need for the Union to protect against those dastardly capitalists has diminished greatly, no?

No,that the breaking of the control of the press brought about,through information to the masses,the knowledge of the extent of the brutality involved.Thus the need for unions.

 

[BigPapaVol]

No,that the breaking of the control of the press brought about,through information to the masses,the knowledge of the extent of the brutality involved.Thus the need for unions.

but with that information prevalent and our investigative press in full force, how can you argue today that the Union is protecting anything besides overpayment for less work and poor quality?

The argument that the amount of information out there shows the need for unions just doesn't make sense today. It might have made since 90 years ago. No longer. Unions have destroyed every industry that finds itself riddled with them. It won't get better.

 

[jdsa]

There's a place for organized labor. My only problem is with the guaranteed nature of the union contracts.

 

[orangeblooded2]

but with that information prevalent and our investigative press in full force, how can you argue today that the Union is protecting anything besides overpayment for less work and poor quality?

The argument that the amount of information out there shows the need for unions just doesn't make sense today. It might have made since 90 years ago. No longer. Unions have destroyed every industry that finds itself riddled with them. It won't get better.

Form my perspective and experience I would argue that the answer to both questions is the same.

Management or rather Mismanagement.


Today's unions understand timely effective work and the need for quality but the responsibility for operational practices and production models and modernization to effect quality is solely based,with a few good exceptions,squarely on the business in question.

Do you think management will ever take responsibility,when they always have a union to blame.

 

[beergood]

At my previous job, I worked in a plant that was non-union. In this corporation there was a Workers' Bill of Rights that guaranteed that an employee could not be terminated without multiple levels of disciplinary action. Verbal warning to official paperwork, I believe there were 6 steps to take before termination.

Never in my life have I ever worked with a group as lazy and worthless as these men. Without a real threat of discipline, the motivation to work was nonexistent. Tooling was in a constant state of disrepair. Jobs that should take an hour to complete turned into all day affairs. And this was directly attributable to a management system that could not weed out dead weight.

Introducing a union into a manufaturing environment is a terrible idea. It encourages laziness, stifles creativity, and drives up overhead. If I was a CEO for a plant that unionized, I would immediately close the plant down and send the jobs elsewhere...

End rant...

 

[BigPapaVol]

Form my perspective and experience I would argue that the answer to both questions is the same.

Management or rather Mismanagement.


Today's unions understand timely effective work and the need for quality but the responsibility for operational practices and production models and moderationation to effect quality is solely based,with a few good exceptions,squarely on the business in question.

Do you think management will ever take responsibility,when they always have a union to blame.

do you really think management is setting the pricing in Detroit? Maybe the airlines? Maybe pro sports? It's the pricing that is killing these guys. The shoddy quality is a by product of union failure, but the pricing is driving these guys to failure.

I assume you're going to say management is killing the postal service? I know the tired old argument about poor product choices and lack of innovation, but how does that work for the airlines or postal service.

The paragraph I highlighted tells me that you are absolutely out of touch with the destructive force that the unions have become over time.

 

[orangeblooded2]

do you really think management is setting the pricing in Detroit? Maybe the airlines? Maybe pro sports? It's the pricing that is killing these guys. The shoddy quality is a by product of union failure, but the pricing is driving these guys to failure.

I assume you're going to say management is killing the postal service? I know the tired old argument about poor product choices and lack of innovation, but how does that work for the airlines or postal service.

The paragraph I highlighted tells me that you are absolutely out of touch with the destructive force that the unions have become over time.

I stand by my opinions.

As far as the highlighted paragraph.Something tells me that you are out of touch with any knowledge about a union,as far as personal experience.That you arguments are from a finical management position and straight out of a business course seminar or something very similar.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I stand by my opinions.

As far as the highlighted paragraph.Something tells me that you are out of touch with any knowledge about a union,as far as personal experience.That you arguments are from a finical management position and straight out of a business course seminar or something very similar.

Tell me how you have come to this ridiculous conclusion?

 

[rjd970]

How come the foreign car makers that operate plants here in right-to-work states don't have unions and get along just fine? This is a serious question. I know Toyota, for example, doesn't have unions, puts out a price competitive quality product, and has lines of people wanting to work for them.

Given today's business world and, as BPV has said, 24-hour news cylces...what is the point of unions? What's wrong with doing away with them and adopting the business practices of companies that thrive without them?

One of the last classes I took for my masters was Union and Trade Relations, and it was taught by a very pro-union professor. Throughout the entire class, and despite the biased nature of the teaching, I could not for the life of me understand how unions could be justified in the U.S anymore.

 

[orangeblooded2]

Tell me how you have come to this ridiculous conclusion?

If I am wrong,then I am wrong.Am I wrong,just for the record.

What about the observation of the first sentence of the quoted text.

 

[BigPapaVol]

If I am wrong,then I am wrong.Am I wrong,just for the record.

What about the observation of the first sentence of the quoted text.

I have no idea what you're referring to, but I do know we're wasting breath. You've likely been the beneficiary of union largesse while I haven't. If we can't come up with any single unionized industry that works, seems to me your arguments make no sense, save personal impact comments.

I'm thinking the steel, auto, airline and postal service think you lost, at least from a profitability, hence viability, perspective.

 

[orangeblooded2]

How come the foreign car makers that operate plants here in right-to-work states don't have unions and get along just fine? This is a serious question. I know Toyota, for example, doesn't have unions, puts out a price competitive quality product, and has lines of people wanting to work for them.

Given today's business world and, as BPV has said, 24-hour news cylces...what is the point of unions? What's wrong with doing away with them and adopting the business practices of companies that thrive without them?

One of the last classes I took for my masters was Union and Trade Relations, and it was taught by a very pro-union professor. Throughout the entire class, and despite the biased nature of the teaching, I could not for the life of me understand how unions could be justified in the U.S anymore.

I think after the big three retool they will be better off.

Toyota's business model is far different that most u.s. companies and i would work for them union or not.

As far as being able to see the need for a union.Drop your masters and go work for a non-union company for six months and I guarantee you a different perspective.

 

[BigPapaVol]

I think after the big three retool they will be better off.

Toyota's business model is far different that most u.s. companies and i would work for them union or not.

As far as being able to see the need for a union.Drop your masters and go work for a non-union company for six months and I guarantee you a different perspective.

The vast majority of people work non-union and amazingly, stick with it. The unions only retain their power in areas where they can force open voting and cram it in employees' throats.

Why don't you tell me how unions help corporations in the long run? I get that they steal money from the company for individuals, but I want to know what they do for the company?

 

[gsvol]

GSVOL.

The answers.

1.Yes as a member and Shop Steward for 5 years-a real educational experience that I would not repeat again, and that i am still paying for twenty years later.

2.No

1A.Given a choice for the source of intimidation and thuggery.I welcome the unions. Compared to my life experiences of the last 20 years at the hands of corporations with little or no regard for basic rights.The harassment and intentional purposeful infliction of emotional distress that even attorneys are finding to be beyond their scope of legal experience.
When and if unions ever take it that far then I might accept the argument for intimidation and thuggery.

As far as corporations going to other countries.

I have a feeling this is going to change through tax breaks or by law.


If all companies would tread people fairly.These laws would be unnecessary.These laws are to try to ensure that they do.Which from my perspective is Euphoric.

1. How do you mean still paying for?

2. Well I have. What was funny was that a young Puerto Rican worker took my side, stuck his hand in his pocket and threatened to to put a couple of holes in the head of the thug and the guy decided to retreat.
I asked him afterwards if he really had a pistol and he said no but the other guy didn't know that. That had to do with corrupt union, mob connected workers working in unison to commit large scale theft. For instance one corporation was losing a million dollars worth of merchandise a day in New York alone.

1A. They already have taken it that far, however I am not personally totally against the right of workers to unionize, I am just against giving the unions too much power and some of the bigger ones already have that.

Emotional distress?? Elaborate por favor.

The only way to combat off shoring is by tariffs as far as I can see, and that isn't going to happen.

It would be nice if all employers would do their best toward their workers.

However you can't go to far the other way either, or you will have no companies to provide jobs.

A good for instance is liberal socialist France that is now realizing the error of it's ways and trying to retreat to a more free business friendly atmosphere in the work place.

Japan did well to listen to Deming post WWII, he said there are four entities that have to be treated equally for business to succeed, those are;

1. the company itself
2. it's workers
3. it's customers
4. it's suppliers

If any of the four don't balance with the others, then the business is doomed to failure eventually.