I can finally start a thread...so here's my first. Where's the coaching?

[NYC Vol]

I see a lot of talk on here about "Zo isn't a good coach" or "Zo's done a good job with what he's inherited". What I don't see a whole lot from the "Zo is a good coach" is examples of what he does well. To be fair, I don't always see examples of what he doesn't do well so I thought I'd give an example of one grossly incompetent coaching move from the aTm game that could have won us the game if our coaching staff actually coached.

I'll use the late game Jordan McRae offensive foul as an example. A&M cut it to 2 and then A&M actually calls time out. We have a chance to set up an inbounds play against a team that will obviously be pressing. The one thing you do NOT want to do against a press is throw it to the corner. So our first option is most likely McRae given Barton's struggles at the line all year (despite him hitting 2 FTs just before). Also, it would have been nice to get another ball handler in there like Thompson (who can also shoot FTs well) and take out Stokes.

So our first action on the inbounds pass is to have McRae run to the corner and our inbounder pass it to him there. Keep in mind this is following a time out and we could set up a play. Shockingly, McRae is trapped. First of all, we NEVER should have our first option run to the corner. In fact, I'd rather call time out than inbound the ball to the corner against a press.

Secondly, once we do pass it to the corner and McRae is trapped, our next best option is to call time out. That can come from the bench, by the way. Instead McRae is trapped, we have nobody in the middle of the floor and inbounder is 6 feet away and cannot get the ball back.

So there you go. That is coaching 101. There were 4 or 5 chances for a coach to affect that play and we instead wind up throwing it in the worst spot possible and then committing a turnover.

 

[keckjm]

It helps to show what you are talking about with pictures in crayon. Just look:

 

[MphsBlues]

Congrats on the first thread. Never should have happened. That, and many more examples. I'm hoping boosters are screaming at the chancellors right now for that one. He's paved a bumpy road to the tourney at this point.

 

[volKano]

1) He sat on all his timeouts until A&M were back in the game.

2). A few very questionable foul calls against UT and he thanked the refs.

3). He allowed McRae to play lazy.


4). He didn't call a timeout and set up a play with 4.5 seconds left.

5) He didn't have someone stay on no. 23. at all times.

 

[Spartacavolus]

coaching 102 is to learn from your mistakes and CM appears to not be able to and reverts back to losing coaching, when it's obvious how this team and players need to play. Lazy turnovers in the halfcourt set 30 feet from the rim is his forte, and that offensive mindset in the 2nd half was seen again. Tired of seeing middle school level mistakes being made that cost us games, as far as gameplanning and in game.

 

[Weezer]

Merge.

 

[VolGee4]

I see a lot of talk on here about "Zo isn't a good coach" or "Zo's done a good job with what he's inherited". What I don't see a whole lot from the "Zo is a good coach" is examples of what he does well. To be fair, I don't always see examples of what he doesn't do well so I thought I'd give an example of one grossly incompetent coaching move from the aTm game that could have won us the game if our coaching staff actually coached.

I'll use the late game Jordan McRae offensive foul as an example. A&M cut it to 2 and then A&M actually calls time out. We have a chance to set up an inbounds play against a team that will obviously be pressing. The one thing you do NOT want to do against a press is throw it to the corner. So our first option is most likely McRae given Barton's struggles at the line all year (despite him hitting 2 FTs just before). Also, it would have been nice to get another ball handler in there like Thompson (who can also shoot FTs well) and take out Stokes.

So our first action on the inbounds pass is to have McRae run to the corner and our inbounder pass it to him there. Keep in mind this is following a time out and we could set up a play. Shockingly, McRae is trapped. First of all, we NEVER should have our first option run to the corner. In fact, I'd rather call time out than inbound the ball to the corner against a press.

Secondly, once we do pass it to the corner and McRae is trapped, our next best option is to call time out. That can come from the bench, by the way. Instead McRae is trapped, we have nobody in the middle of the floor and inbounder is 6 feet away and cannot get the ball back.

So there you go. That is coaching 101. There were 4 or 5 chances for a coach to affect that play and we instead wind up throwing it in the worst spot possible and then committing a turnover.

The pass to the corner is actually fine as long as the recipient of the pass doesn't hold on to the ball. As you say, the corner is open because they want you to go there, but they are clogging the middle on the inbounds. Once the pass is made, the recipient either immediately hits someone in the middle (as the double team comes) or gets it right back to the inbounder. As a PG, my dad used to tell me to use zig zag passing to break a press. The problem, as you probably pointed out, is that we don't put anyone in the middle. We also did this against LSU. The middle of the court has to be used at some point to break a press.

As far as some of the others: I am ok with not taking a timeout with 4.5 seconds left. It gives the defense time to set up, and you should prepare your players for that in practice. I am also ok with Maymon being on the foul line at the end for the rebound. If you put someone else and he gets beat on an offensive rebound, then you also look bad. Maymon is a senior and should at least make one. Bad fundamentals on his part- he was flat footed and failed to bend his knees. I don't care how strong you are. At the end of games, you have to bend the knees and get some touch on the ball.

 

[rickyb712]

1) He sat on all his timeouts until A&M were back in the game.

2). A few very questionable foul calls against UT and he thanked the refs.

3). He allowed McRae to play lazy.


4). He didn't call a timeout and set up a play with 4.5 seconds left.

5) He didn't have someone stay on no. 23. at all times.

3333333333333333333333333333333333 McRae needs to learn thats its a team. why did he shoot that 3 as soon as he got the ball up 56 52 less than 2 minutes left. either run clock off or drive we was in the bonus. imo i dont think he is as great a team player as he should be. oh and the coaching stinks

 

[knowthevols]

3333333333333333333333333333333333 McRae needs to learn thats its a team. why did he shoot that 3 as soon as he got the ball up 56 52 less than 2 minutes left. either run clock off or drive we was in the bonus. imo i dont think he is as great a team player as he should be. oh and the coaching stinks

Did you say the coaching stinks?

 

[tnvols72]

3333333333333333333333333333333333 McRae needs to learn thats its a team. why did he shoot that 3 as soon as he got the ball up 56 52 less than 2 minutes left. either run clock off or drive we was in the bonus. imo i dont think he is as great a team player as he should be. oh and the coaching stinks

Oh you are in trouble now. How dare you say that coaching stinks. Wait until the fightingConzos catch wind of this.
But I do agree that coaching stinks. It has from day 1

 

[PACKERVOL]

Did you say the coaching stinks?

I got wind of it.

 

[patrick]

I see a lot of talk on here about "Zo isn't a good coach" or "Zo's done a good job with what he's inherited". What I don't see a whole lot from the "Zo is a good coach" is examples of what he does well. To be fair, I don't always see examples of what he doesn't do well so I thought I'd give an example of one grossly incompetent coaching move from the aTm game that could have won us the game if our coaching staff actually coached.

I'll use the late game Jordan McRae offensive foul as an example. A&M cut it to 2 and then A&M actually calls time out. We have a chance to set up an inbounds play against a team that will obviously be pressing. The one thing you do NOT want to do against a press is throw it to the corner. So our first option is most likely McRae given Barton's struggles at the line all year (despite him hitting 2 FTs just before). Also, it would have been nice to get another ball handler in there like Thompson (who can also shoot FTs well) and take out Stokes.

So our first action on the inbounds pass is to have McRae run to the corner and our inbounder pass it to him there. Keep in mind this is following a time out and we could set up a play. Shockingly, McRae is trapped. First of all, we NEVER should have our first option run to the corner. In fact, I'd rather call time out than inbound the ball to the corner against a press.

Secondly, once we do pass it to the corner and McRae is trapped, our next best option is to call time out. That can come from the bench, by the way. Instead McRae is trapped, we have nobody in the middle of the floor and inbounder is 6 feet away and cannot get the ball back.

So there you go. That is coaching 101. There were 4 or 5 chances for a coach to affect that play and we instead wind up throwing it in the worst spot possible and then committing a turnover.

No you didn't!!! How dare you criticize the heralded CCM or his staff. Dont you know what history tells us about CCM coaching prowess.....

LOL - Just Kidding.

 

[k-town_king]

Yea finishing above expectations each year is horrible coaching. It doesn't matter that we had sanctions and 6 scholly players back and still did better than we where supposed to. Pearl had 19 wins with an 8-8 SEC record with T Harris and Hopson but he is the greatest coach ever. We lose them and everyone else and have a better record the next year and the coach is horrible. Smh

 

[Stoked]

Yea finishing above expectations each year is horrible coaching. It doesn't matter that we had sanctions and 6 scholly players back and still did better than we where supposed to. Pearl had 19 wins with an 8-8 SEC record with T Harris and Hopson but he is the greatest coach ever. We lose them and everyone else and have a better record the next year and the coach is horrible. Smh

Inb4 someone says but yeah he had sanctions coming and lost the team...

 

[patrick]

Yea finishing above expectations each year is horrible coaching. It doesn't matter that we had sanctions and 6 scholly players back and still did better than we where supposed to. Pearl had 19 wins with an 8-8 SEC record with T Harris and Hopson but he is the greatest coach ever. We lose them and everyone else and have a better record the next year and the coach is horrible. Smh

What sanctions were those exactly that you are speaking of????

And even at only 19 wins, Pearl's worst year got him in the tourney and was nuked by hambone.

CCM winning 20 games the next year isn't a great accomplishment when not making the NCAAT and neither was last year.

 

[dal9]

I've got a "cool story, pal" for you guys (*don't want to write "bro" and get called out!).

Many of you probably played organized basketball at some level. Maybe a few of you coach your kids' AAU team, maybe an 8th grade team or a JV girls team. Clearly, we have posters here that are relatively High Basketball IQ.

The story is that after Martin ended his playing career, Gene Keady wanted to hire him as an assistant. But either Keady or Purdue had a rule that coaches had to have their college degrees, and Martin was about a year short. So, for a year, while Martin finished his degree at Purdue, he coached the JV team at the local High School (where I was in my junior year at the time.)

Martin took over a team that wasn't really bad, but was mediocre (~.500) before he got there, was mediocre after he left (and is probably still mediocre to this day). He coached the JV to an undefeated season.

My point is not that "Martin had a good season coaching JV and so is obviously the solution for the Vols going forward." My point is that 20+ years ago, in his first season of coaching, Martin was already handing out clown suits to opposing coaches who understood the game at a level that the very best posters on here do.


I get it. A big part of message boards is to criticize coaches and players. That's fine, we all do it.

But, the next time you post about "putting Stokes in the high post" or "breaking the trap using this obvious strategy" or "why doesn't he get T'd up already" or generally imply that Martin is some moron who lucked into getting this job, take a second to pause and think:

It's likely that Martin understands the game at a much higher level than I do, and he's got valid reasons for his coaching decisions.

 

[lostsheep]

I've got a "cool story, pal" for you guys (*don't want to write "bro" and get called out!).

Many of you probably played organized basketball at some level. Maybe a few of you coach your kids' AAU team, maybe an 8th grade team or a JV girls team. Clearly, we have posters here that are relatively High Basketball IQ.

The story is that after Martin ended his playing career, Gene Keady wanted to hire him as an assistant. But either Keady or Purdue had a rule that coaches had to have their college degrees, and Martin was about a year short. So, for a year, while Martin finished his degree at Purdue, he coached the JV team at the local High School (where I was in my junior year at the time.)

Martin took over a team that wasn't really bad, but was mediocre (~.500) before he got there, was mediocre after he left (and is probably still mediocre to this day). He coached the JV to an undefeated season.

My point is not that "Martin had a good season coaching JV and so is obviously the solution for the Vols going forward." My point is that 20+ years ago, in his first season of coaching, Martin was already handing out clown suits to opposing coaches who understood the game at a level that the very best posters on here do.


I get it. A big part of message boards is to criticize coaches and players. That's fine, we all do it.

But, the next time you post about "putting Stokes in the high post" or "breaking the trap using this obvious strategy" or "why doesn't he get T'd up already" or generally imply that Martin is some moron who lucked into getting this job, take a second to pause and think:

It's likely that Martin understands the game at a much higher level than I do, and he's got valid reasons for his coaching decisions.

So....you're sayin because he was successful at coaching the JV team we should all agree that he is a great coach after all? I'm sure you're right and he has forgotten more bball than most on here know...but he sure isn't showing it right now. Part of being a successful D-1 Bball coach is being a leader of young men. You can take a natural leader and teach them some X's and O's...but you can't take a good X & O guy and teach them leadership and passion. JMO.

 

[Spartacavolus]

There are a lot of people that know the game out there. A mistake is a mistake. Poor coaching is poor coaching. Doesn't matter who wanted you or who you played for. His great experience and knowledge has amounted to squat, while making basic errors in judgement, gameplan and in-game coaching, specifically, and repeating those same errors.

 

[PeytonManningVFL]

There are a lot of people that know the game out there. A mistake is a mistake. Poor coaching is poor coaching. Doesn't matter who wanted you or who you played for. His great experience and knowledge has amounted to squat, while making basic errors in judgement, gameplan and in-game coaching, specifically, and repeating those same errors.

I'm curious...what are your coaching qualifications?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

It's my dream that one day there can be some random school, and that school hires coaches from message boards. How freaking awesome would that be, we've got so many posters who would swear they're the next Adolph Rupp, Bobby Knight or Coach K.

It would be the greatest thing ever to watch a few posters, who's names I won't mention, to try and coach a college team. There's a reason Cuonzo Martin is gonna make more than $5 million from The University Of Tennessee, how many people on this board can make that same claim?

 

[Spartacavolus]

I'm curious...what are your coaching qualifications?

Minimal. Couldn't support my family the way I wanted and bailed for a business opportunity. 2 yrs asst hc in hs/3 yrs aau in early 90's.

 

[Spartacavolus]

It's my dream that one day there can be some random school, and that school hires coaches from message boards. How freaking awesome would that be, we've got so many posters who would swear they're the next Adolph Rupp, Bobby Knight or Coach K.

It would be the greatest thing ever to watch a few posters, who's names I won't mention, to try and coach a college team. There's a reason Cuonzo Martin is gonna make more than $5 million from The University Of Tennessee, how many people on this board can make that same claim?

There is a lot going into being a hc that I couldn't handle, including recruiting. A ton. But we are talking about 40 minutes against another team.

I'll argue all day that I could coach a better game than saturday without one doubt. 4-5 basic coaching moves and you win the game, vs the moves that lose it. Same with nc state.
I mean, to think that I or one of my handpicked assistants wouldn't have a plan for the aggies missing, tying, or hitting a 3? I imagine the pick and pop from the guy with 19 in the second half surprised them as well?
Its basic and you either know it or you don't, regardless of your experience.

 

[lostsheep]

It's my dream that one day there can be some random school, and that school hires coaches from message boards. How freaking awesome would that be, we've got so many posters who would swear they're the next Adolph Rupp, Bobby Knight or Coach K.

It would be the greatest thing ever to watch a few posters, who's names I won't mention, to try and coach a college team. There's a reason Cuonzo Martin is gonna make more than $5 million from The University Of Tennessee, how many people on this board can make that same claim?

BTO...are you on CCM's staff? Geeze...the way you carry water for him, despite the obvious shortcomings, is impressive. Can you not admit the man is in over his head at this point? That this team should be much better than they are at this point in the season?

 

[bleedingTNorange]

BTO...are you on CCM's staff? Geeze...the way you carry water for him, despite the obvious shortcomings, is impressive. Can you not admit the man is in over his head at this point? That this team should be much better than they are at this point in the season?

Wtf does my post have to do with CCM?

 

[NYC Vol]

It's my dream that one day there can be some random school, and that school hires coaches from message boards. How freaking awesome would that be, we've got so many posters who would swear they're the next Adolph Rupp, Bobby Knight or Coach K.

It would be the greatest thing ever to watch a few posters, who's names I won't mention, to try and coach a college team. There's a reason Cuonzo Martin is gonna make more than $5 million from The University Of Tennessee, how many people on this board can make that same claim?

So what you're saying is you think my above example has no merit?

I put an example of poor coaching up top. The people who object have yet to offer up a reason why that occurred at the end of the game and also haven't offered up an example of good coaching specifics.