Identify the Idiot

[BWeller18]

vick is extremely overrated. He played against a much easier NFC, and they had a good defense this year.

 

[volbrian]

First, the lone vote for Vick had to come from Florida or Georgia.

Second, McNair was equally as deserving for the MVP as Manning was last year. But that was last year. This year, there shouldnt be any doubt that PM was MVP.

Third, maybe MILO was the one who voted for Vick :dlol:

 

[Freak]

Everyone is always picking on poor milo.

 

[donsargegolf]

If milo would wake up everyone would get off of him. This Vick crowd is about the highlight reel. The reason Price, Crumpler and the rest of the Falcoons cannot catch a pass, run a route or call a play is because they don't have a clue what Vick's next move will be. Milo doesn't realize Peyton calls EVERY play at the line of scrimmage, calls the blocking schemes at the line of scrimmage, adjusts the routs and blocking schemes after that call, at the line of scrimmage, and then throws 67.9 percentage of completions for 53 TD's in 17 games. A man that does all of that with 25 seconds per play deserves a key to the White House. And as for Vick-I am quite sure he could do the same thing if given the same opportunity. :dlol: :dlol: Anyone who disagrees can :moon2: :moon2: :moon2:

 

[BWeller18]

Originally posted by donsargegolf@Jan 11, 2005 9:28 PM
If milo would wake up everyone would get off of him. This Vick crowd is about the highlight reel. The reason Price, Crumpler and the rest of the Falcoons cannot catch a pass, run a route or call a play is because they don't have a clue what Vick's next move will be. Milo doesn't realize Peyton calls EVERY play at the line of scrimmage, calls the blocking schemes at the line of scrimmage, adjusts the routs and blocking schemes after that call, at the line of scrimmage, and then throws 67.9 percentage of completions for 53 TD's in 17 games. A man that does all of that with 25 seconds per play deserves a key to the White House.

:worship: :worship: :good:

 

[Freak]

I don't see anywhere that Milo said Vick was better than Manning or deserved any votes for the MVP. I think he said Vick is exciting to watch and is very valuable to his team.... which I agree with. He may not have the greatest stats but man I like to watch him run.

That said...Manning does deserve a key to the Whitehouse. His understanding of the game is unreal.

 

[donsargegolf]

I enjoyed watching Barry Sanders run but, he was a rb. Vick needs to buy a program and check out what position he plays. epper:

 

[milohimself]

I also value effectiveness... They are both effective, in different ways. The Falcons realized that Vick has the ability to run better than any QB in the league (and some runningbacks, as well) so they built a gameplan around him.

While I would take Peyton over Vick ten times out of nine, the fact is that the Falcons took Vick's strong points and capitalized on it. They used his strengths, turned him into a franchise player and it has been a success. And it's not their fault the rest of the NFC sucks.

thanks, freak

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by donsargegolf@Jan 11, 2005 9:39 PM
I enjoyed watching Barry Sanders run but, he was a rb. Vick needs to buy a program and check out what position he plays. epper:

True. I still like to watch him run though. :wassup:

I am usually disappointed when he throws.

 

[donsargegolf]

you cannot build a gameplan around like chicken running around with his head cut off. thats the same problem Schaeffer has. Individuality is no gameplan. :beer: And since when did statistics mean nothing Milo. What are we supposed to evaluate players on their style points ?????

 

[milohimself]

Well, to be fair, let's wait for the NFC to start beefing up again then see how the Dirtybirds do. If Vick can adapt when he needs to and start making passes, then we will know. But for now, in the NFC's climate, he doesn't really have to. He's just gotta sit back and wait for the hash marks to clear up then bolt.

 

[milohimself]

Originally posted by donsargegolf@Jan 11, 2005 6:42 PM
And since when did statistics mean nothing Milo. What are we supposed to evaluate players on their style points ?????

When you watch a QB (or any player) and KNOW whether or not they are effective in how they play.

 

[donsargegolf]

He and his brother are quite good at that. Must be their background.

 

[donsargegolf]

What is slick vicks cumulative record? the way he plays he needs no teammates to score victory. his crazy style ran one of the nfl's great coaches, dan reeves, out of the business.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by donsargegolf@Jan 11, 2005 9:42 PM
you cannot build a gameplan around like chicken running around with his head cut off. thats the same problem Schaeffer has. Individuality is no gameplan. :beer:

He's got some moves though. Come on don...you can say it: he has some pretty good moves doesn't he?

I'll give you that his passing stats are not that impressive. Not terrible, but not great.

 

[donsargegolf]

If I want good moves with all that hucking and bucking I'll start watching Florida A&M play Grambling. I don't enjoy watching undisciplined, individualistic "athletes" run amuck. Read between the lines if you will.

 

[volbrian]

When we talk about MVP, Most Valuable Player of what? His team or the NFL?

No question, PM is the NFLs MVP and Michael Vick is no where close to being NFL MVP, not based on what he did in 2004.

But I will give Vick the Falcon MVP award.

 

[GAVol]

Originally posted by donsargegolf@Jan 11, 2005 9:50 PM
What is slick vicks cumulative record? the way he plays he needs no teammates to score victory. his crazy style ran one of the nfl's great coaches, dan reeves, out of the business.

Vick has something like a 66% win percentage. He basically bought Dan Reeves an extra year in 2002, but when he got hurt in the preseason last year and the Falcons fell on their face, Arthur Blank merely used it as an opportunity as the new owner to run Dan Reeves and bring in his own guy . . . Seems to have worked out pretty well.

That being said - even as big a Falcons fan as I am . . . I think it's ludicrous that anybody would vote Vick ahead of Manning. They both are freaks of nature, but Manning may have just had the greatest season of any QB ever.

 

[JohnsonCityVol]

It boils down to the definition of the MVP award: is it the best player in the league thereby making those around him great as well, or the player that means more to his team than any other player does to his?

If it's the former it's Manning unanimously. If it's the latter, then Vick BARELY edges Manning. Most people tend to agree that the criteria is the former and not the latter.

The Colts w/o Manning MIGHT still be a playoff team without him. Harrison would still be a threat, so would Wayne, Stokely, and James. Dallas Clark I'm not so sure about becaause he has Manning throwing to him 2 years and Witten in Dallas has had Cokehead Carter and Vinny Testaverde and still puts up big numbers.

The Falcons w/o Vick are another .500 team at best, though this past year that might have been good enough to get into the playoffs. Vick was better under Reeves because he had experience with fleet QBs that liked to improvise: Roger Staubach and John Elway. Staubach learned quickly the value of the passing game because he had to compete against a passer to get the starting job. Elway finally learned the same lesson, but only after he successfully ousted Reeves in favor of Shanahan. 50% of Reeves playbook with Vick was from the Cowboys 30 years ago, the other 50% were from the Broncos from 20 years ago.

Until the Falcons can consistently move the ball successfully without Vick ever leaving the pocket, there's no way he can be considered one of the best QBs in the league, much less an MVP.

 

[allvol]

Originally posted by JohnsonCityVol@Jan 11, 2005 11:04 PM
It boils down to the definition of the MVP award: is it the best player in the league thereby making those around him great as well, or the player that means more to his team than any other player does to his?

If it's the former it's Manning unanimously. If it's the latter, then Vick BARELY edges Manning. Most people tend to agree that the criteria is the former and not the latter.

The Colts w/o Manning MIGHT still be a playoff team without him. Harrison would still be a threat, so would Wayne, Stokely, and James. Dallas Clark I'm not so sure about becaause he has Manning throwing to him 2 years and Witten in Dallas has had Cokehead Carter and Vinny Testaverde and still puts up big numbers.

The Falcons w/o Vick are another .500 team at best, though this past year that might have been good enough to get into the playoffs. Vick was better under Reeves because he had experience with fleet QBs that liked to improvise: Roger Staubach and John Elway. Staubach learned quickly the value of the passing game because he had to compete against a passer to get the starting job. Elway finally learned the same lesson, but only after he successfully ousted Reeves in favor of Shanahan. 50% of Reeves playbook with Vick was from the Cowboys 30 years ago, the other 50% were from the Broncos from 20 years ago.

Until the Falcons can consistently move the ball successfully without Vick ever leaving the pocket, there's no way he can be considered one of the best QBs in the league, much less an MVP.

Sorry, Manning wins hands down on both counts. Maybe Harrison would be decent, but the rest of those guys would be mediocre without Manning. Manning made ALL of them. Harrison's stats were like Peerless Price's when Manning came to Indy. And with the Colts defense, they would definately be a sub-.500 team without Manning. The Colts offense is centered around Manning, much like the Falcons offense is centered around Vick.

Interesting how when Peerless Price was with the Bills he had stats like this...

52 receptions for 762 yards
55 receptions for 895 yards
94 receptions for 1252 yards

Then last season, while Vick was hurt....

64 receptions for 838 yards

but now that Vick is back and running....

45 receptions for 575 yards

Interestingly, in the Falcons last 2 regular season games, Vick missed one and barely played the other... Price had season highs in receptions in both games (6 receptions and 7 receptions).

So the argument that Vick does not have good receivers does not hold water.... especially since he doesn't even try to throw to them.

If I were Price, I would get out of Atlanta fast when I became a free agent and find a true passing team.

 

[GoVolsDogg]

Originally posted by allvol+Jan 12, 2005 9:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (allvol @ Jan 12, 2005 9:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JohnsonCityVol@Jan 11, 2005 11:04 PM
It boils down to the definition of the MVP award: is it the best player in the league thereby making those around him great as well, or the player that means more to his team than any other player does to his?

If it&#39;s the former it&#39;s Manning unanimously. If it&#39;s the latter, then Vick BARELY edges Manning. Most people tend to agree that the criteria is the former and not the latter.

The Colts w/o Manning MIGHT still be a playoff team without him. Harrison would still be a threat, so would Wayne, Stokely, and James. Dallas Clark I&#39;m not so sure about becaause he has Manning throwing to him 2 years and Witten in Dallas has had Cokehead Carter and Vinny Testaverde and still puts up big numbers.

The Falcons w/o Vick are another .500 team at best, though this past year that might have been good enough to get into the playoffs. Vick was better under Reeves because he had experience with fleet QBs that liked to improvise: Roger Staubach and John Elway. Staubach learned quickly the value of the passing game because he had to compete against a passer to get the starting job. Elway finally learned the same lesson, but only after he successfully ousted Reeves in favor of Shanahan. 50% of Reeves playbook with Vick was from the Cowboys 30 years ago, the other 50% were from the Broncos from 20 years ago.

Until the Falcons can consistently move the ball successfully without Vick ever leaving the pocket, there&#39;s no way he can be considered one of the best QBs in the league, much less an MVP.

Sorry, Manning wins hands down on both counts. Maybe Harrison would be decent, but the rest of those guys would be mediocre without Manning. Manning made ALL of them. Harrison&#39;s stats were like Peerless Price&#39;s when Manning came to Indy. And with the Colts defense, they would definately be a sub-.500 team without Manning. The Colts offense is centered around Manning, much like the Falcons offense is centered around Vick.

Interesting how when Peerless Price was with the Bills he had stats like this...

52 receptions for 762 yards
55 receptions for 895 yards
94 receptions for 1252 yards

Then last season, while Vick was hurt....

64 receptions for 838 yards

but now that Vick is back and running....

45 receptions for 575 yards

Interestingly, in the Falcons last 2 regular season games, Vick missed one and barely played the other... Price had season highs in receptions in both games (6 receptions and 7 receptions).

So the argument that Vick does not have good receivers does not hold water.... especially since he doesn&#39;t even try to throw to them.

If I were Price, I would get out of Atlanta fast when I became a free agent and find a true passing team. [/quote]
And that just isnt true. Stokley is the biggest benefit of Maning, but Harrison. Wayne, Clark, and Hartsock are eother 1st or 2nd round draft choices and have the talent to succeed anywhere.

Harrison is the cleanest rotue runner in the league, Wayne had his big breakthrough season this year, Clark and Hartsock both are good TE&#39;s that would be good on just about any team because they would beat most LB&#39;s that try and cover them.

Not anything agaisnt Manning, but those players around him have monster talent as well.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by GoVolsDogg+Jan 12, 2005 3:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GoVolsDogg &#064; Jan 12, 2005 3:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by allvol@Jan 12, 2005 9:15 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-JohnsonCityVol

@Jan 11, 2005 11:04 PM
It boils down to the definition of the MVP award: is it the best player in the league thereby making those around him great as well, or the player that means more to his team than any other player does to his?

If it&#39;s the former it&#39;s Manning unanimously. If it&#39;s the latter, then Vick BARELY edges Manning. Most people tend to agree that the criteria is the former and not the latter.

The Colts w/o Manning MIGHT still be a playoff team without him. Harrison would still be a threat, so would Wayne, Stokely, and James. Dallas Clark I&#39;m not so sure about becaause he has Manning throwing to him 2 years and Witten in Dallas has had Cokehead Carter and Vinny Testaverde and still puts up big numbers.

The Falcons w/o Vick are another .500 team at best, though this past year that might have been good enough to get into the playoffs. Vick was better under Reeves because he had experience with fleet QBs that liked to improvise: Roger Staubach and John Elway. Staubach learned quickly the value of the passing game because he had to compete against a passer to get the starting job. Elway finally learned the same lesson, but only after he successfully ousted Reeves in favor of Shanahan. 50% of Reeves playbook with Vick was from the Cowboys 30 years ago, the other 50% were from the Broncos from 20 years ago.

Until the Falcons can consistently move the ball successfully without Vick ever leaving the pocket, there&#39;s no way he can be considered one of the best QBs in the league, much less an MVP.

Sorry, Manning wins hands down on both counts. Maybe Harrison would be decent, but the rest of those guys would be mediocre without Manning. Manning made ALL of them. Harrison&#39;s stats were like Peerless Price&#39;s when Manning came to Indy. And with the Colts defense, they would definately be a sub-.500 team without Manning. The Colts offense is centered around Manning, much like the Falcons offense is centered around Vick.

Interesting how when Peerless Price was with the Bills he had stats like this...

52 receptions for 762 yards
55 receptions for 895 yards
94 receptions for 1252 yards

Then last season, while Vick was hurt....

64 receptions for 838 yards

but now that Vick is back and running....

45 receptions for 575 yards

Interestingly, in the Falcons last 2 regular season games, Vick missed one and barely played the other... Price had season highs in receptions in both games (6 receptions and 7 receptions).

So the argument that Vick does not have good receivers does not hold water.... especially since he doesn&#39;t even try to throw to them.

If I were Price, I would get out of Atlanta fast when I became a free agent and find a true passing team.

And that just isnt true. Stokley is the biggest benefit of Maning, but Harrison. Wayne, Clark, and Hartsock are eother 1st or 2nd round draft choices and have the talent to succeed anywhere.

Harrison is the cleanest rotue runner in the league, Wayne had his big breakthrough season this year, Clark and Hartsock both are good TE&#39;s that would be good on just about any team because they would beat most LB&#39;s that try and cover them.

Not anything agaisnt Manning, but those players around him have monster talent as well. [/quote]
I hate to inject facts into this discussion, but here goes:

Harrison was with the Colts 3 years prior to Manning

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
1996 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 64 836 13.1 41 8 15 1 43
1997 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 73 866 11.9 44 6 9 2 46
1998 Indianapolis Colts 12 12 59 776 13.2 61 7 9 2 40
1999 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 115 1663 14.5 57 12 24 7 79
2000 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 102 1413 13.9 78 14 16 4 70
2001 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 109 1524 14.0 68 15 19 6 75
2002 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 143 1722 12.0 69 11 22 4 92
2003 Indianapolis Colts 15 15 94 1272 13.5 79 10 17 4 60
2004 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 86 1113 12.9 59 15 16 3 63
TOTAL 139 137 845 11185 13.2 79 98 147 33 568


Stokey’s Stats before and after Peyton
Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
1999 Baltimore Ravens 2 0 1 28 28.0 28 1 1 0 1
2000 Baltimore Ravens 7 1 11 184 16.7 32 2 4 0 10
2001 Baltimore Ravens 16 5 24 344 14.3 46 2 6 1 16
2002 Baltimore Ravens 8 5 24 357 14.9 35 2 7 0 16
2003 Indianapolis Colts 6 3 22 211 9.6 37 3 2 0 11
2004 Indianapolis Colts 16 3 68 1077 15.8 69 10 20 2 53
TOTAL 55 17 150 2201 14.7 69 20 40 3 107


Both of these guys have benefited from Manning.

For sure, they&#39;d both make other NFL rosters, but to say they&#39;d be this good without Manning just denies the facts.

Harrison&#39;s stats almost doubled in Manning&#39;s first year.

That&#39;s pretty convincing.

 

[Tnvolfan68]

I am not for sure that Vick puts in the extra effort that Mannindg does to make his team better i.e.. off season work passing drills ect. If you take Manning out of the game the Colts are definately not as good simply because the checks he makes on the field.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by Tnvolfan68@Jan 12, 2005 3:38 PM
I am not for sure that Vick puts in the extra effort that Mannindg does to make his team better i.e.. off season work passing drills ect. If you take Manning out of the game the Colts are definately not as good simply because the checks he makes on the field.

Withoug Manning they&#39;re a 6/10, 4/12 team. They wouldn&#39;t even smell the playoffs.

Marvin Harrison&#39;s stats doubled in Manning&#39;s first year.

 

[GoVolsDogg]

Originally posted by OldVol+Jan 12, 2005 3:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (OldVol @ Jan 12, 2005 3:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by GoVolsDogg@Jan 12, 2005 3:24 PM

Originally posted by allvol@Jan 12, 2005 9:15 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-JohnsonCityVol

@Jan 11, 2005 11:04 PM
It boils down to the definition of the MVP award: is it the best player in the league thereby making those around him great as well, or the player that means more to his team than any other player does to his?

If it&#39;s the former it&#39;s Manning unanimously. If it&#39;s the latter, then Vick BARELY edges Manning. Most people tend to agree that the criteria is the former and not the latter.

The Colts w/o Manning MIGHT still be a playoff team without him. Harrison would still be a threat, so would Wayne, Stokely, and James. Dallas Clark I&#39;m not so sure about becaause he has Manning throwing to him 2 years and Witten in Dallas has had Cokehead Carter and Vinny Testaverde and still puts up big numbers.

The Falcons w/o Vick are another .500 team at best, though this past year that might have been good enough to get into the playoffs. Vick was better under Reeves because he had experience with fleet QBs that liked to improvise: Roger Staubach and John Elway. Staubach learned quickly the value of the passing game because he had to compete against a passer to get the starting job. Elway finally learned the same lesson, but only after he successfully ousted Reeves in favor of Shanahan. 50% of Reeves playbook with Vick was from the Cowboys 30 years ago, the other 50% were from the Broncos from 20 years ago.

Until the Falcons can consistently move the ball successfully without Vick ever leaving the pocket, there&#39;s no way he can be considered one of the best QBs in the league, much less an MVP.

Sorry, Manning wins hands down on both counts. Maybe Harrison would be decent, but the rest of those guys would be mediocre without Manning. Manning made ALL of them. Harrison&#39;s stats were like Peerless Price&#39;s when Manning came to Indy. And with the Colts defense, they would definately be a sub-.500 team without Manning. The Colts offense is centered around Manning, much like the Falcons offense is centered around Vick.

Interesting how when Peerless Price was with the Bills he had stats like this...

52 receptions for 762 yards
55 receptions for 895 yards
94 receptions for 1252 yards

Then last season, while Vick was hurt....

64 receptions for 838 yards

but now that Vick is back and running....

45 receptions for 575 yards

Interestingly, in the Falcons last 2 regular season games, Vick missed one and barely played the other... Price had season highs in receptions in both games (6 receptions and 7 receptions).

So the argument that Vick does not have good receivers does not hold water.... especially since he doesn&#39;t even try to throw to them.

If I were Price, I would get out of Atlanta fast when I became a free agent and find a true passing team.

And that just isnt true. Stokley is the biggest benefit of Maning, but Harrison. Wayne, Clark, and Hartsock are eother 1st or 2nd round draft choices and have the talent to succeed anywhere.

Harrison is the cleanest rotue runner in the league, Wayne had his big breakthrough season this year, Clark and Hartsock both are good TE&#39;s that would be good on just about any team because they would beat most LB&#39;s that try and cover them.

Not anything agaisnt Manning, but those players around him have monster talent as well.

I hate to inject facts into this discussion, but here goes:

Harrison was with the Colts 3 years prior to Manning

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
1996 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 64 836 13.1 41 8 15 1 43
1997 Indianapolis Colts 16 15 73 866 11.9 44 6 9 2 46
1998 Indianapolis Colts 12 12 59 776 13.2 61 7 9 2 40
1999 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 115 1663 14.5 57 12 24 7 79
2000 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 102 1413 13.9 78 14 16 4 70
2001 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 109 1524 14.0 68 15 19 6 75
2002 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 143 1722 12.0 69 11 22 4 92
2003 Indianapolis Colts 15 15 94 1272 13.5 79 10 17 4 60
2004 Indianapolis Colts 16 16 86 1113 12.9 59 15 16 3 63
TOTAL 139 137 845 11185 13.2 79 98 147 33 568


Stokey’s Stats before and after Peyton
Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
1999 Baltimore Ravens 2 0 1 28 28.0 28 1 1 0 1
2000 Baltimore Ravens 7 1 11 184 16.7 32 2 4 0 10
2001 Baltimore Ravens 16 5 24 344 14.3 46 2 6 1 16
2002 Baltimore Ravens 8 5 24 357 14.9 35 2 7 0 16
2003 Indianapolis Colts 6 3 22 211 9.6 37 3 2 0 11
2004 Indianapolis Colts 16 3 68 1077 15.8 69 10 20 2 53
TOTAL 55 17 150 2201 14.7 69 20 40 3 107


Both of these guys have benefited from Manning.

For sure, they&#39;d both make other NFL rosters, but to say they&#39;d be this good without Manning just denies the facts.

Harrison&#39;s stats almost doubled in Manning&#39;s first year.

That&#39;s pretty convincing. [/quote]
Of course they benefit, unless you can name another QB that is putting up Peytons numbers, they&#39;re going to have better stats than if they played elsewhere.

Harrison is the best route runner in the league, the guy would shine anywhere he went to in this league. Stokley is different, he benefits from the offense and the fact that other defenses are more worried about the other receivers.

Harrison is a top 5 WR in the NFL, and will be regardless of which team he is on, not many would disagree with that.