If old Joe Milton shows up again—how long should Heupel leave him in the game for?

[LordVOLdemort]

How is it moot?

According to Heupel, prior to Milton getting hurt, he considered him the better QB of the two.

Once Milton was hurt, and he was forced to start Hooker, it was pretty obvious that Heupel was incorrect in his original evaluation.

The point being, that just because Heupel is the HC, doesn't mean he's infallible in his decision-making.

Well, I tell you what. Come Saturday, one of us is gonna be right and one of us is gonna be wrong. And I think we both hope I’m right. Milton will be fine, defense will dominate.

 

[greazy1722]

No need to panic Joe Milton is the guy. Wr’s dropped passes.

 

[knox73]

A more relevant question is how many drops/fumbles can the starting receivers have and maintain their playing time? Jalin Hyatt was benched 2 years ago for unreliable hands so Thornton and others need to step up or sit down. There is essentially no backup to Joe until mid season but the receivers may lose their spots if poor results continue.

 

[Carp]

Hope he balls out, but honestly—it seemed Guarantano-esque. We have too much momentum as a program to allow poor QB play to regress us back to the DoojonesPru era.

You clearly don't remember Guarantano.

Milton's worst start as a Vol so far is still probably better than Guarantano's best game.

 

[EODVOL]

I think a lot will depend on how well our run game is going. Contrary to popular belief, TN is a balanced offense and relies on the run game to set up pass, and vice versa. If we are gashing them then I can see Joe staying in all game even if his game is off.

 

[EODVOL]

Hope he balls out, but honestly—it seemed Guarantano-esque. We have too much momentum as a program to allow poor QB play to regress us back to the DoojonesPru era.

Nah, nothing like Guarantano. Joe knows where he needs to go with the ball and isn't afraid of running it. The recievers he is trying to hit are always open which lends me to believe he has a grasp of reading what is presented to him. His problem is accuracy.

 

[volbound1700]

I missed most of the first half of the Austin Peay game but attended UVA live. I did NOT see a lot of down play pass calls. Most of the screens are called screens because they throw immediately. Not sure if this is related to a problem or TN hiding play book. Seems odd to hide play book when Austin Peay was giving you a game though.

 

[sjt18]

How is it moot?

According to Heupel, prior to Milton getting hurt, he considered him the better QB of the two.

Once Milton was hurt, and he was forced to start Hooker, it was pretty obvious that Heupel was incorrect in his original evaluation.

The point being, that just because Heupel is the HC, doesn't mean he's infallible in his decision-making.

I don't think he's infallible. Milton by ALL accounts was the best QB during that competition.

That said, his first start seemed to surprise Heupel and the staff. He didn't play like he practiced. It may have taken more time to replace him but I don't think he could have played that way and remained the starter. His injury wasn't enough to keep him sidelined very long. IIRC, he could have been available the next game.

 

[Carp]

How is it moot?

According to Heupel, prior to Milton getting hurt, he considered him the better QB of the two.

Once Milton was hurt, and he was forced to start Hooker, it was pretty obvious that Heupel was incorrect in his original evaluation.

The point being, that just because Heupel is the HC, doesn't mean he's infallible in his decision-making.

Milton practiced better than Hooker. He is more physically talented than Hooker. He's obviously a great leader. Pretty much every reporter who watched the practices agreed that Milton was far and away better than the other Qbs on the roster.

And, unless something changes, Milton is likely to be an early round draft pick too. So it isn't like Hooker was sitting behind Harrison Bailey or something. He had to choose between 2 very talented QBs, who both will end up having NFL careers. Seems like a good problem to have.

For example, Ohio State had JT Barrett, Dwayne Haskins, and Joe Burrow all on the same team. Barrett and Haskins were Heisman candidates at OSU. Did they miss on their evaluation of Burrow, or did they just have 3 really friggin good QBs on the roster at the same time?

 

[swampfoxfan]

Being critical is one thing, being paranoid is another. The "old Joe" has grown in ability and gained confidence of the coaches. Why don't we just enjoy Big Orange football?

 

[BeardedVol]

Milton practiced better than Hooker. He is more physically talented than Hooker. He's obviously a great leader. Pretty much every reporter who watched the practices agreed that Milton was far and away better than the other Qbs on the roster.

And, unless something changes, Milton is likely to be an early round draft pick too. So it isn't like Hooker was sitting behind Harrison Bailey or something. He had to choose between 2 very talented QBs, who both will end up having NFL careers. Seems like a good problem to have.

For example, Ohio State had JT Barrett, Dwayne Haskins, and Joe Burrow all on the same team. Barrett and Haskins were Heisman candidates at OSU. Did they miss on their evaluation of Burrow, or did they just have 3 really friggin good QBs on the roster at the same time?

"Milton practiced better than Hooker"

What does that even mean, if "practicing better" didn't translate to better play on the field?

Milton may be the best QB on the roster at the moment, which should give us all pause, but that doesn't make Heupel's judgement beyond reproach, not does it mean that he's going to ger it 'right' every time.

So far this season, Milton's play has done little to dispell questions about his ability to lead an SEC offense.

 

[BeardedVol]

I don't think he's infallible. Milton by ALL accounts was the best QB during that competition.

That said, his first start seemed to surprise Heupel and the staff. He didn't play like he practiced. It may have taken more time to replace him but I don't think he could have played that way and remained the starter. His injury wasn't enough to keep him sidelined very long. IIRC, he could have been available the next game.

And Heupel was wrong.

Maybe the criteria he was using to gauge them was flawed? Maybe he was emotionally invested in making Milton a better QB? Who knows.

What we do know, is that Hooker ran Heupel's offense better on game day, and there was never any question over who to start after Milton was hurt, and Heupel was forced to play Hooker.

 

[sjt18]

And Heupel was wrong.

Maybe the criteria he was using to gauge them was flawed? Maybe he was emotionally invested in making Milton a better QB? Who knows.

What we do know, is that Hooker ran Heupel's offense better on game day, and there was never any question over who to start after Milton was hurt, and Heupel was forced to play Hooker.

Well, no. EVERY coach goes off practice to determine their #1 when they don't have a returning starter. It is not "wrong" to start the guy who according to ALL reports not only won the job but ran away with it... in practice. The criterion is pretty close to the same across all coaches. Bama appears to be struggling with it right now. So starting the guy who wins the job is "wrong"?

UT fans of all fans should know that some guys bloom when the lights come on and some guys fold. I hope that whatever locks Milton up and keeps him from relaxing and playing well can be resolved. But we recently saw JG work for 4 years trying to overcome the issues in his head on gameday... and he couldn't.

I cannot claim to know how long Milton's leash is or how much confidence they have in Nico at this point. Hopefully we never have to see that question answered.

The hard part for a coach is knowing if a guy will turn around given time or... if they can't. The sample size for JM seems sufficient to make a call if it comes down to it.

 

[Carp]

"Milton practiced better than Hooker"

What does that even mean, if "practicing better" didn't translate to better play on the field?

Milton may be the best QB on the roster at the moment, which should give us all pause, but that doesn't make Heupel's judgement beyond reproach, not does it mean that he's going to ger it 'right' every time.

So far this season, Milton's play has done little to dispell questions about his ability to lead an SEC offense.

Going into the season, all you have is practice. How else would you like a coach to make an evaluation?

Milton looked ok vs Bowling Green in first start. Inaccurate but 3 total TDs and 200 yards of offense. IMO, he looked pretty good (not great) vs Pitt until he got injured. Again, it wasn't as if Milton played his way out of the lineup. He played pretty decent, got hurt, Hooker came in and balled out, and the rest is history.

 

[Daniel_Lincolns_Foot]

And Heupel was wrong.

Maybe the criteria he was using to gauge them was flawed? Maybe he was emotionally invested in making Milton a better QB? Who knows.

What we do know, is that Hooker ran Heupel's offense better on game day, and there was never any question over who to start after Milton was hurt, and Heupel was forced to play Hooker.

He was only wrong in hindsight, but at the time there was no way of knowing for sure. Milton was named the starter in 2021 based on camp/practice, had a questionable game against BGSU--which at the time could have been excused by "first game nerves"--and then was removed from the Pitt game and never got the starting job back. The sample size at that point may have been too small at that point to say Milton wasn't the guy. But, if Heupel truly thought that he was, then Milton would have gotten the starting position back upon coming back from injury. It's impossible to say whether Milton would have kept the starting job past the '21 Pitt game.

 

[Carp]

He was only wrong in hindsight, but at the time there was no way of knowing for sure. Milton was named the starter in 2021 based on camp/practice, had a questionable game against BGSU--which at the time could have been excused by "first game nerves"--and then was removed from the Pitt game and never got the starting job back. The sample size at that point may have been too small at that point to say Milton wasn't the guy. But, if Heupel truly thought that he was, then Milton would have gotten the starting position back upon coming back from injury. It's impossible to say whether Milton would have kept the starting job past the '21 Pitt game.

I'm convinced the Milton haters simply hold a grudge based solely off the Ole Miss game. A game in which we would have won had Tilman caught the ball in the back of the endzone a play earlier, instead of letting it go through his hands. No one blames Tilman though.

 

[BeardedVol]

Well, no. EVERY coach goes off practice to determine their #1 when they don't have a returning starter. It is not "wrong" to start the guy who according to ALL reports not only won the job but ran away with it... in practice. The criterion is pretty close to the same across all coaches. Bama appears to be struggling with it right now. So starting the guy who wins the job is "wrong"?

UT fans of all fans should know that some guys bloom when the lights come on and some guys fold. I hope that whatever locks Milton up and keeps him from relaxing and playing well can be resolved. But we recently saw JG work for 4 years trying to overcome the issues in his head on gameday... and he couldn't.

I cannot claim to know how long Milton's leash is or how much confidence they have in Nico at this point. Hopefully we never have to see that question answered.

The hard part for a coach is knowing if a guy will turn around given time or... if they can't. The sample size for JM seems sufficient to make a call if it comes down to it.

You can try to rationalize Heupel's decision to play Milton over Hooker, however you like, but it still won't change the fact that it was ultimately the wrong decision. If I were Heupel, I'd probably have gone back to review how I was evaluating the QBs at that point.

Milton may very well be the best QB on the roster at the moment, but "because Heupel says so" doesn't really carry much weight given the history, and what we've seen on the field so far this season.

 

[CAVPUT]

I'm convinced the Milton haters simply hold a grudge based solely off the Ole Miss game. A game in which we would have won had Tilman caught the ball in the back of the endzone a play earlier, instead of letting it go through his hands. No one blames Tilman though.

It sticks in fans minds to be sure. Still, in the heat of the moment, sometimes your brain cramps up and stupid things happen.

 

[BeardedVol]

Going into the season, all you have is practice. How else would you like a coach to make an evaluation?

Milton looked ok vs Bowling Green in first start. Inaccurate but 3 total TDs and 200 yards of offense. IMO, he looked pretty good (not great) vs Pitt until he got injured. Again, it wasn't as if Milton played his way out of the lineup. He played pretty decent, got hurt, Hooker came in and balled out, and the rest is history.

Milton didn't even attend spring camp in 2021; Hooker did. They both were praised going into fall camp, Hooker especially for his retention from spring camp.

Ultimately Hazle, Golesh, Heupel, whomever had the final say, which I'd assume is Heupel, got it wrong.

Milton didn't look adequate as a passer in the Bowling Green game, and it only got worse when compared to Hooker who rode the bench until he was injured.



The difference between Milton coming back in for Hooker, is that it was a season and a half later. Hooker came in in game two and played lights out better that Milton, and that should have ended the discussion on who the starter should be, but it still took Heupel nearly a month to name Hooker the starter.

Hendon Hooker wins starting quarterback job at Tennessee

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Hendon Hooker has played well enough to finally earn the starting quarterback job at Tennessee.

apnews.com

 

[sjt18]

You can try to rationalize Heupel's decision to play Milton over Hooker, however you like, but it still won't change the fact that it was ultimately the wrong decision.

No. It wasn't unless you have some magical method for determining that a guy who isn't as good as another will actually play better in games.

The "process" has risks and a degree of error in it. But until someone can predict how respective players respond to game time... that's the best they have.

Not "rationalization". Just realism. Coaches have to make decisions based on the information they have. All of us make decisions based on incomplete information. We have no choice. It is NOT a "wrong decision" to make a choice based on the best available data.

If I were Heupel, I'd probably have gone back to review how I was evaluating the QBs at that point.

LOL. I hope you are kidding. The staff has been pretty open about the fact that some of the stuff Hooker did in games just didn't show in practice. Part of it was "no contact" and how he responded so cool when the hits were real. Most of it was just his knack for "seeing" things and making great decisions when the opponent did things they did not prepare for.

Look, it happens. It happens with every coach and program. There is built in error unless you take the risk of allowing your QBs to take live hits in every practice. Even then there is a degree of error. "Gamers" are a real thing... as are guys who fold when the lights come on. There's really nothing that can be done to make practice exactly like a game and draw those things out.

Milton may very well be the best QB on the roster at the moment, but "because Heupel says so" doesn't really carry much weight given the history, and what we've seen on the field so far this season.

It is his call to make... and there is a VERY high probability... he's right... and you are not.

 

[BeardedVol]

No. It wasn't unless you have some magical method for determining that a guy who isn't as good as another will actually play better in games.

The "process" has risks and a degree of error in it. But until someone can predict how respective players respond to game time... that's the best they have.

Not "rationalization". Just realism. Coaches have to make decisions based on the information they have. All of us make decisions based on incomplete information. We have no choice. It is NOT a "wrong decision" to make a choice based on the best available data.

LOL. I hope you are kidding. The staff has been pretty open about the fact that some of the stuff Hooker did in games just didn't show in practice. Part of it was "no contact" and how he responded so cool when the hits were real. Most of it was just his knack for "seeing" things and making great decisions when the opponent did things they did not prepare for.

Look, it happens. It happens with every coach and program. There is built in error unless you take the risk of allowing your QBs to take live hits in every practice. Even then there is a degree of error. "Gamers" are a real thing... as are guys who fold when the lights come on. There's really nothing that can be done to make practice exactly like a game and draw those things out.

It is his call to make... and there is a VERY high probability... he's right... and you are not.

Again, you're trying to justify the decision as hindsight, but you have nothing to support that it was the correct decision to begin with, other than "the coaches watch practice and they made it".

The product that was put on the field in 2021, was evidence in itself that their evaluation, was incorrect. In spite of that, we most likely wouldn't be having this conversation if the QB who started the 2021 season, wasn't playing in similar fashion at the start of the 2023 season.

Milton may very well be the best QB we currently have on the roster, but he was not in 2021 when he was named starter, and so far this season, he's not played at a level high enough to nullify any debate on his abilities to be a successful D1 QB.

Tennessee QB Coach Updates Competition | Rocky Top Insider

Tennessee quarterback coach Joey Halzle is impressed with he work of his quarterbacks two days into the start of fall camp.

www.rockytopinsider.com

 

[Other_Guy]

Old Joe is still currently 4-0 and no turnovers. It's going to take an epic meltdown for him to get pulled

 

[sjt18]

Again, you're trying to justify the decision as hindsight, but you have nothing to support that it was the correct decision to begin with, other than "the coaches watch practice and they made it".

The coaches made the best decision based on the available information. It wasn't just coaches. It was essentially every person who saw practice. NO ONE came away saying that Hooker or the other two should be the starter.

The product that was put on the field in 2021, was evidence in itself that their evaluation, was incorrect. In spite of that, we most likely wouldn't be having this conversation if the QB who started the 2021 season, wasn't playing in similar fashion at the start of the 2023 season.

You are making a literal TON of assumptions and then rendering a hindsight condemnation. I don't know what you've done in your life. I've been a coach. I've been a church leader. I've been an officer in the military. And for over 30 years I've led manufacturing operations teams in various capacities.

I have had to make decisions. I have had to make decisions about people- who do we keep, who gets promoted, who gets hired, who gets a bigger bonus, who gets a bigger raise. NONE of those decisions is EVER made with perfect data much less clairvoyance concerning the future. You also simply cannot know how someone will respond to the decision you make... whether they'll be who you thought they were or flounder.

You are condemning Heupel for making an informed, rational decision.

Milton may very well be the best QB we currently have on the roster, but he was not in 2021 when he was named starter, and so far this season, he's not played at a level high enough to nullify any debate on his abilities to be a successful D1 QB.

Tennessee QB Coach Updates Competition | Rocky Top Insider

Tennessee quarterback coach Joey Halzle is impressed with he work of his quarterbacks two days into the start of fall camp.

www.rockytopinsider.com

Wholly different from whether him winning the job was correct or not. He may just struggle like JG did when the lights come on. I personally think he does struggle with controlling his adrenaline. He's probably throwing the ball even harder in games.

And for all we know... he could really be as bad as you seem to think and still be the best option at this point.


Jones' career at UT ended because of his decision concerning QB. Unlike Heupel... he apparently manipulated the situation until the guy who did NOT perform best in practice was awarded the job. By all accounts I saw, Dormady earned the job over JG but Jones kept the competition open until he was able to push JG forward.

JG proved much more than Milton has to date that he could not perform on game day. Jones stuck with him regardless. That may have been because they had no better option. It may have been a genuine coaching mistake.

 

[Carp]

Milton didn't even attend spring camp in 2021; Hooker did. They both were praised going into fall camp, Hooker especially for his retention from spring camp.

Ultimately Hazle, Golesh, Heupel, whomever had the final say, which I'd assume is Heupel, got it wrong.

Milton didn't look adequate as a passer in the Bowling Green game, and it only got worse when compared to Hooker who rode the bench until he was injured.
View attachment 579142
View attachment 579143

The difference between Milton coming back in for Hooker, is that it was a season and a half later. Hooker came in in game two and played lights out better that Milton, and that should have ended the discussion on who the starter should be, but it still took Heupel nearly a month to name Hooker the starter.

Hendon Hooker wins starting quarterback job at Tennessee

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Hendon Hooker has played well enough to finally earn the starting quarterback job at Tennessee.

apnews.com

No one cares about how long it took Heupel to officially name him the starting QB after the Pitt game. It wasn't as if Milton was ruled out for those games,. So clearly Hooker was given the opportunity to start over Milton, regardless if he was named officially or not.

 

[dillyo51]

Would depend on score.