Interesting

#26
#26
Possible losses:

Pitchers: Marks (Sr), Ownby, Cox, Kane, Lehnstrom (Sr)

Infield: Simcox, Lee, Maggio*, Wormsley (Sr)

Catcher: Houser*

Outfield: Stewart, Jackson,

That would be about 2/3 of the innings and most of the offense from this year's team. The immediate future is not very bright for the Vols baseball team.
 
#28
#28
Voljlt said:
This. Based on what is being said in other posts about the draft, it is a toss-up whether you get to keep some of the guys you recruit because they could leave for the draft.

Here is a question maybe someone could answer that would put my comment in a little more perspective...if CDS were able to sign all of the players he recruited over the last four seasons that actually did not make it to UT due to being drafted and signed in MLB (and I don't know how many that is, honestly), how could this have affected the outcome of this season?
Click to expand...

We lost Mookie Betts from the 2011 group...this was the class CDS had to get/hold onto when he arrived.

I don't think we lost any from the 2012 group.

Cam Strickland is the only 2013 commit we didn't get on campus, can't remember what he did...

Then last year we didn't get Lane Thomas or Kevin Steen.

So we haven't had big problems with the draft. I'm not saying those guys wouldn't have helped, certainly they would have, but other schools lose more guys than that.

When you look at the first class, only Maddox really panned out, Wormsley came up big at times for us this year...that's it out of a class of 14...Marks was in that class, but did not get to campus until last year.

The next class, the current juniors, we missed on four guys out of 12 and the question is how many of the guys left are SEC caliber players...AJ, Stewie, VJax, Houser, Lee, Lance, Owenby and Cox. If one decides that 1 or 2 of those guys aren't SEC caliber then that's missing on half the class.

That is the biggest issue. You're looking it square in the face. 10 contributors out of 26 players, spread across 2 classes. Like most coaches, he gets a pass on that first class, but when you miss on that many it makes it tough in two major areas. Depth and Leadership.

On paper the last two classes are better than the first two, and the two that are coming might be the best of CDS' tenure, and the fact that we're discussing the possibility of losing 4 kids to the draft reflects it.
 
#29
#29
vol66 said:
We lost Mookie Betts from the 2011 group...this was the class CDS had to get/hold onto when he arrived.

I don't think we lost any from the 2012 group.

Cam Strickland is the only 2013 commit we didn't get on campus, can't remember what he did...

Then last year we didn't get Lane Thomas or Kevin Steen.

So we haven't had big problems with the draft. I'm not saying those guys wouldn't have helped, certainly they would have, but other schools lose more guys than that.

When you look at the first class, only Maddox really panned out, Wormsley came up big at times for us this year...that's it out of a class of 14...Marks was in that class, but did not get to campus until last year.

The next class, the current juniors, we missed on four guys out of 12 and the question is how many of the guys left are SEC caliber players...AJ, Stewie, VJax, Houser, Lee, Lance, Owenby and Cox. If one decides that 1 or 2 of those guys aren't SEC caliber then that's missing on half the class.

That is the biggest issue. You're looking it square in the face. 10 contributors out of 26 players, spread across 2 classes. Like most coaches, he gets a pass on that first class, but when you miss on that many it makes it tough in two major areas. Depth and Leadership.

On paper the last two classes are better than the first two, and the two that are coming might be the best of CDS' tenure, and the fact that we're discussing the possibility of losing 4 kids to the draft reflects it.
Click to expand...

Adam Giacolne.
 
#30
#30
matts42012 said:
Adam Giacolne.
Click to expand...

Yeah, forgot, that was 2011...like Betts, they would have been gone last year, so they wouldn't have been around to help this year's team.

He was a JUCO commit signed November 2011, so he would have been a 2012 kid...that's why he's not listed on the PG lists...and Tyler Smith was another JUCO we didn't get at the same time.
 
Last edited:
#31
#31
If you look at the consistent dominant teams, the bottom line is pitching, specifically depth of pitching. It is also very difficult to recruit because they get drafted out of high school. However, look at Vandy, Florida, Arkansas, South Carolina, etc consistent guys drafted high in the MLB draft after their junior year. Great to have the other players, and those guy can make a championship, but the repeat regional participants have deep, dominant pitching. I thought last 2 years some progress in that area, but not to the level of some of the other programs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#32
#32
matts42012 said:
"down year"? no.

Raleigh's last year they opened the season with literally cupcakes and glorified HS teams to pad the schedule. Also, look at the talent they had when they took over. Todd, had alot. Dave, had 2 players. Maddux and Godley
Click to expand...

Two traditional powers, State and USC were absolute garbage this year, it was a down year from a depth standpoint. The league was extremely top heavy this year.
 
#33
#33
feathersax said:
Here at the SEC Tournament all week. Doesn't take long to see that Tennessee talent level & depth are well behind other teams. So before crucifying the coach take a look. :whistling:
Click to expand...

Is he not responsible for the talent and depth? If not, then what does his job description entail?
 
#35
#35
bowlinggreenvol said:
Two traditional powers, State and USC were absolute garbage this year, it was a down year from a depth standpoint. The league was extremely top heavy this year.
Click to expand...

But we also added A&M and Mizzou. At the end of the day, you could see a record number of SEC regional teams.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#36
#36
txbo said:
But we also added A&M and Mizzou. At the end of the day, you could see a record number of SEC regional teams.
Click to expand...

Except A&M has made the tournament the last 8 years so they're not an "additional team" this year. It's not like Carolina fell-off but was replaced by A&M. The SEC had 10 last year, that very likely doesn't happen this year. Only way is if both bubble teams (Mizzou and UK) get the benefit of the doubt and Bama wins the tournament. In order for that to happen, Mizzou and UK will break the previous "record" for highest RPI for an at large team. I think Mizzou gets in with a top 5 SOS and .500 conference record. If anyone other than OSU wins the Big XII (since TCU is out) or Dallas Baptist or Missouri State wins the MVC then UK is definitely out and Missouri is potentially out. Regardless, the SEC won't set a record this season.
 
Last edited:
#37
#37
bowlinggreenvol said:
Except A&M has made the tournament the last 8 years so they're not an "additional team" this year. It's not like Carolina fell-off but was replaced by A&M. The SEC had 10 last year, that very likely doesn't happen this year. Only way is if both bubble teams (Mizzou and UK) get the benefit of the doubt and Bama wins the tournament. In order for that to happen, Mizzou and UK will break the previous "record" for highest RPI for an at large team. I think Mizzou gets in with a top 5 SOS and .500 conference record. If anyone other than OSU wins the Big XII (since TCU is out) or Dallas Baptist or Missouri State wins the MVC then both UK is definitely out and Missouri is potentially out. Regardless, the SEC won't set a record this season.
Click to expand...

I'm simply saying, A&M and Mizzou were not in the SEC for previous coaches and they are very competitive programs.

Also, I meant Regional hosts but you are obviously much more educated on the stats than I. It really just doesn't seem like a "down year" in the SEC to me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#38
#38
txbo said:
I'm simply saying, A&M and Mizzou were not in the SEC for previous coaches and they are very competitive programs.

Also, I meant Regional hosts but you are obviously much more educated on the stats than I. It really just doesn't seem like a "down year" in the SEC to me.
Click to expand...

IMO, its still the best league just not as strong top to bottom as the last few years. When you have the potential to "only" get 7 teams in the tournament and have 4 of those make a case for a national seed (won't actually happen) it's very top heavy.
 
#39
#39
The OP wants to compare Raleigh and Serrano...

Drafted 2008 Raleigh's first year...

Andy Simunic - Inherited from CRD
Shawn Griffin - Inherited from CRD
Yan Gomes - Inherited from CRD

Drafted 2009

Kentrail Davis - Inherited from CRD
Bryan Morgado - Inherited from CRD (Freshman All-American - drafted 3rd round by the White Sox, returned for his junior season.
Nicholas Hernandez - Inherited from CRD
Ty'Relle Harris - Inherited from CRD
Danny Wiltz - Inherited from CRD

Drafted 2010

Bryan Morgado - drafted 4th round by the Phillies - Inherited from CRD
Blake Forsythe - Freshman in 2008, drafted after 2009 season
Cody Hawn - Freshman year 2008 at WSCC, drafted after 2009 season
PJ Polk - Freshman 2008, drafted after 2009 season
Stephen McCray - JUCO, played one year, drafted after 2009 season

Drafted 2011

Steven Gruver - 2009 freshman, drafted after 2011 season
Matt Ramsey - 2009 freshman, drafted after 2011 season
Charley Thurber - 2009 freshman, drafted after 2011 season
Matt Duffy - transfer from Vermont in 2010, drafted after 2011 season
Khayyan Norfork - JUCO 2010, drafted after 2011 season

Drafted 2012 Dave Serrano's first year...

Drew Steckenrider - Inherited from CTR: 2010 ERA 5.79, 2011 ERA 6.11, 2012 ERA 3.36

Drafted 2013

Zack Godley - Inherited from CTR: Used as a reliever in 2011, ERA 3.38, 2012 became a starter, ERA 3.50, 2013 ERA 3.49

Drafted 2014

Nick Williams - Inherited from CTR: 2011 6.48 ERA, 2014 3.22 ERA
Will Maddox - Freshman in 2012, Drafted after 2014 season.
Taylor Smart - 2013 JUCO, drafted after 2014 season
 
#40
#40
Why are you guys still talking about CTR? He has been gone for several years, get over it! This is CDS ship and all the problems are on him. By the way Maddox was also a CTR recruit.
 
#43
#43
vol66 said:
I know it's just a MESSAGE board but you guys could try a little harder.
Click to expand...

I'm saying it somewhat tongue in cheek. But we as a fanbase do tend to lay blame on previous regimes long into the next regimes tenure and/or blame lack of talent on just that and never give credence to the ability of a staff to try and develop said "talent".

I've been clear in my stance; if this program fails to make Hoover, at the minimum, next year the staff needs to go. And unfortunately it's a real possibility. We can't reward 2 Hoover and 0 Regional trips over a 9 year stretch. CDS will and should get a 5th year but an undeserved and unlikely to come contract extension could make 2016 recruiting tough.
 
Last edited:
#44
#44
bowlinggreenvol said:
I'm saying it somewhat tongue in cheek. But we as a fanbase do tend to lay blame on previous regimes long into the next regimes tenure and/or blame lack of talent on just that and never give credence to the ability of a staff to try and develop said "talent".
Click to expand...

That's what i mean. The OP wants to compare the last 3 coaches, which in my opinion is stupid. But, might as well point out some interesting things like Todd basically stopped recruiting after 2009. All you have to do is look at who was drafted from the 2010-11 classes...and of those few guys I tried to show what they were doing under Raleigh and what they did under Serrano. Not to mention, of the 12 guys, and no he doesn't get credit for Maddox, 6 of them played two years or less.

Specifically, the OP is talking about record. Well, what I'm trying to point out is though they have similar records, one did it with the benefit of starting off with a decent roster and not having to play a bunch of freshman, the other did not.

Previous to that post, and in many other threads, i have pointed out that CDS' first class was a bust and maybe the second class was not much better, though we will find out come draft day on that bunch.

Someone, somewhere...on this earth...decided four years is enough time to turn around ANY program. I'd like to kick that guy in the nuts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#45
#45
and...to the point yawl were discussing earlier...10 teams from the conference made the NCAA tournament last year, I believe that's the record. Is that something to be ignored? That while CDS has been on the job the conference as a whole is as strong as it's ever been?

I am of the mindset that one can't ignore this fact. Does that excuse being swept by UGA, under a second year coach? No.

Holbrook was handed the keys to a Mercedes. Cohen was the CWS runner-up just two years ago and the last report I read we rank 13th in attendance...LSU has had over 300,000 people to their park for home games, we've had 35,000...
 
#46
#46
vol66 said:
That's what i mean. The OP wants to compare the last 3 coaches, which in my opinion is stupid. But, might as well point out some interesting things like Todd basically stopped recruiting after 2009. All you have to do is look at who was drafted from the 2010-11 classes...and of those few guys I tried to show what they were doing under Raleigh and what they did under Serrano. Not to mention, of the 12 guys, and no he doesn't get credit for Maddox, 6 of them played two years or less.

Specifically, the OP is talking about record. Well, what I'm trying to point out is though they have similar records, one did it with the benefit of starting off with a decent roster and not having to play a bunch of freshman, the other did not.

Previous to that post, and in many other threads, i have pointed out that CDS' first class was a bust and maybe the second class was not much better, though we will find out come draft day on that bunch.

Someone, somewhere...on this earth...decided four years is enough time to turn around ANY program. I'd like to kick that guy in the nuts.
Click to expand...

Why should Maddox not be CDR? He recruited and signed him. CDS was singing that this team was going to Omaha, so apparently he thought 4 years was enough. CDS put those expectations on himself. CDS should be given as much time as he needs, he runs a clean program. That's all we should really expect from a non-revenue sport. He needs to make some changes in his coaching staff. His third base coach drags the team down.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#47
#47
vol66 said:
and...to the point yawl were discussing earlier...10 teams from the conference made the NCAA tournament last year, I believe that's the record.




LSU has had over 300,000 people to their park for home games, we've had 35,000...
Click to expand...


Keep in mind the league is now 14 teams so while a record of 10 is impressive it certainly isn't apple to apples in comparison


To your last point. That is more proof that the uphill battle this program faces is enormous. When comparing fan support, facilities, recruiting areas, and tradition this program is clearly in the bottom 3 of the league.

IMO we are the 13th best program in the league only ahead of Kentucky when it comes to the ceiling of success
 
#48
#48
vol66 said:
and...to the point yawl were discussing earlier...10 teams from the conference made the NCAA tournament last year, I believe that's the record. Is that something to be ignored? That while CDS has been on the job the conference as a whole is as strong as it's ever been?

I am of the mindset that one can't ignore this fact. Does that excuse being swept by UGA, under a second year coach? No.

Holbrook was handed the keys to a Mercedes. Cohen was the CWS runner-up just two years ago and the last report I read we rank 13th in attendance...LSU has had over 300,000 people to their park for home games, we've had 35,000...
Click to expand...

Holbrook is looking more and more like he would've been a poor hire. Not that we've been much better but in hindsight I'm glad we didn't hire an unproven HC. As you said, he's running that program down. Supers to regional to missing the tourney all together in his 3 years on the job.

I'm fine with being a middle of the pack program with some 1995, 2005 type seasons sprinkled in here and there. The SEC is a gauntlet and we're at a disadvantage from a prestige, weather and home-grown talent standpoint compared to the Deep South schools. But we're not at much of competitive disadvantage from those standpoints with Mizzou, UK, Vandy or Arkansas (except recent prestige on the last 2). All have issues to overcome more so than the programs in the "Sun Belt".
 
#49
#49
volforlife50 said:
Why should Maddox not be CDR? He recruited and signed him. CDS was singing that this team was going to Omaha, so apparently he thought 4 years was enough. CDS put those expectations on himself. CDS should be given as much time as he needs, he runs a clean program. That's all we should really expect from a non-revenue sport. He needs to make some changes in his coaching staff. His third base coach drags the team down.
Click to expand...

For the same reason Martin gets credit for Stokes and Pearl does not...The guy that gets fired, though he laid the ground work, doesn't get to take credit for the new coach having to come in and keep the kid from leaving...Mike Hamilton laid the ground work for CDS, but Joan Cronin was the one standing there at the press conference and she will get the blame, or the kudos, however it turns out...and rightly so.
 
#50
#50
BruinVol said:
Keep in mind the league is now 14 teams so while a record of 10 is impressive it certainly isn't apple to apples in comparison


To your last point. That is more proof that the uphill battle this program faces is enormous. When comparing fan support, facilities, recruiting areas, and tradition this program is clearly in the bottom 3 of the league.

IMO we are the 13th best program in the league only ahead of Kentucky when it comes to the ceiling of success
Click to expand...

I certainly am keeping that in mind Bruin. Who would have thought that the Aggies, and especially Mizzou, being the Northern most school, that WE WOULDN'T have an easier time making it to the SEC Tourney. Of Course, coaching experience isn't something fans seem to value much, Childress has been at TAMU for 13 years and Jameson is the longest tenured coach in the SEC at 21 years.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top