Introducing your new Reds manager...

#27
#27
vols kick balls said:
And Arroyo's arm falls off after 100. It all depends on the player. Some can take it and some others can't.
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True, we'll see what happens. Baker probably learned his lesson with Prior and Wood, honestly though, I can't lay all the blame on Baker with Prior seeing as how Prior really didn't have much in the way of pitching related injuries in Baker's tenure. He just seems to be a bad luck guy who was possibly a bit overhyped.
 
#28
#28
Vercingetorix said:
Precisely. Isn't Harang something like 30 years old?

There's overwhelming stathead evidence of a strong correlation between high pitch counts for young pitchers and subsequent arm trouble. By the time they're in their late 20s, pitchers' arms are mature and they can go much deeper into games, but it's depressingly easy to think of enormously promising guys who were overworked at 21-23 years old, blew out their arms, and were never the same. Mark Fidrych, Dwight Gooden, Steve Avery, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, etc. etc. etc. Felix Hernandez's arm is already faltering; Seattle needs to be really careful with him.

It didn't seem to happen as much a couple of decades ago, which I'm sure is why Dusty Baker's attitude towards young pitchers -- man up and get out there -- is what it is. I've read a dozen hypotheses as to why that might be the case, but the two that make the most sense to me are:

1. Young pitchers' arms may have been stronger in the 50s, 60s, and 70s because kids played baseball almost year-round back then; instead of playing football and basketball in the fall and winter, they were still throwing a baseball. More work = stronger arms, and fewer injuries.

2. Much of the attrition had already happened by the time young pitchers got to the major leagues. Young pitchers whose arms couldn't handle the workload just didn't make the majors; many of them just got a "dead arm" (as they called it then) and went to do something else for a living. The relatively few guys whose young arms could handle the strain ended up in the big leagues.

I don't know whether either of these explanations are true, but any manager who sends Mark Prior out there to throw 120 pitches in a game is flying in the face of all the modern evidence. Homer Bailey might want to start asking around for recommendations of a good surgeon.
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If he's not tough enough, good riddance. How many injuries did Bob Feller, Bob Gibson, et al suffer as a result of an early workload? I'm sick of seeing pampered, sniveling bonus babies go crying to the clubhouse after 6 innings. Also, Gooden's problems had a lot more to do with his nose than his arm. Further, Avery, Wood, and Hernandez all had/have awful mechanics.
 
#29
#29
Greg Maddux was in the Cub rotation at 21. How many arm injuries has he had? How many times was Tom Glavine on the DL prior to turning 40? Amazing how competitive guys with good mechanics don't get hurt.
 
#31
#31
hatvol96 said:
If he's not tough enough, good riddance. How many injuries did Bob Feller, Bob Gibson, et al suffer as a result of an early workload? I'm sick of seeing pampered, sniveling bonus babies go crying to the clubhouse after 6 innings. Also, Gooden's problems had a lot more to do with his nose than his arm. Further, Avery, Wood, and Hernandez all had/have awful mechanics.
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Gibson was 25 before he threw 200 innings in the major leagues; by 25 your arm is basically mature and you're ready to start throwing 120 pitches. Bob Feller probably had the greatest arm in the history of baseball. Maddux and Glavine are so efficient in pitches-per-inning that their pitch counts never got particularly high. Mark Prior was widely touted as having "perfect mechanics," yet a couple of years under Dusty Baker and his career may already be over.

I absolutely think that by the time a top pitcher hits about 25 years old, he needs to be ready to take the pressure off your bullpen by going 8 or 9 every time out. It's only really young pitchers who need to be babied a little. Unfortunately, the only really young pitchers who make it to the big leagues are an organization's top prospects. Which makes it that much worse when baseball people ignore the latest evidence and leave their young pitchers out there, expecting every prospect to have the arm of Bob Feller.

Maybe Bailey's one of those rare guys like Livan Hernandez whose arm can take it; I hope so. Otherwise you'll no doubt enjoy watching him spend most of 2009 on the DL because he's a sniveling candyass who can't take it.
 
#36
#36
JTrainDavis said:
:ermm::ermm::ermm: ah, what the hell:lolabove:

The truth, hard as it is for people to swallow, is the truth.
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No doubt Gooden ruined his life by abusing drugs. But the Mets ruined his arm by vastly overusing him at a very young age.

Gooden was still pitching effectively after his cocaine problems began; he missed a third of the 87 season due to drug rehab but still came back to win 15 games. It was when his arm started falling apart (at age 24) in 1989 that he really declined.
 
#37
#37
i'm convinced steroids is the primary reason why so many guys are blowing out their arms these days and can't go past 100 pitches.

A question? In baseball is the manager even important? How many games does a good manager win for you? 4 or 5 a season max?
 
#38
#38
droski said:
i'm convinced steroids is the primary reason why so many guys are blowing out their arms these days and can't go past 100 pitches.

A question? In baseball is the manager even important? How many games does a good manager win for you? 4 or 5 a season max?
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I dont think its about how many wins a good manager will get you. I think its more about how many losses a bad manager will get you.
 
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