Is Derek Jeter done?

#101
#101
GahLee said:
They are comparable players.

They are comended on their gritty toughness and get more praise then they should.

As far as hitting the ball goes, they are even.

Jeter has been overrated for so long on the defensive side of the ball is is absurd. Pedroia is legit.
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The season Jeter had in '99 blows anything Pedroia has done out of the water. '00 and '06 are better than Pedroia's MVP season as well (Which I think is a joke).
 
#102
#102
GahLee said:
They are comparable players.

They are comended on their gritty toughness and get more praise then they should.

As far as hitting the ball goes, they are even.

Jeter has been overrated for so long on the defensive side of the ball is is absurd. Pedroia is legit.
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You won't find me slurping the Jeter kool-aid like many. But to compare Pedroia to him is not even close.
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#103
#103
nbakerld said:
Why can't you compare them? I'd much rather have prime Griffey Jr in CF than prime Jeter at SS.

Value at the plate >>>>> value in the field. (not to mention Griffey had a great glove).
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I'd take a prime Griffey over a prime Jeter all day, everyday
 
#104
#104
NYYVol said:
You won't find me slurping the Jeter kool-aid like many. But to compare Pedroia to him is not even close.
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Like to hear why?

They are going to give you virtaully the same production hitting wise.

Defensively, Jeter plays a worse SS then Pedroia's 2nd but obviously SS is a more premium position.

It is beyond close. It's neck and neck. the only difference is that Jeter has done it for many more years and it remains to be seen if Padroia can maintain the same level of success.

But as far as how good of a baseball player each is, you could go either way to me.
 
#108
#108
GahLee said:
Like to hear why?

They are going to give you virtaully the same production hitting wise.

Defensively, Jeter plays a worse SS then Pedroia's 2nd but obviously SS is a more premium position.

It is beyond close. It's neck and neck. the only difference is that Jeter has done it for many more years and it remains to be seen if Padroia can maintain the same level of success.

But as far as how good of a baseball player each is, you could go either way to me.
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But you act as if the hitting is that close. Jeter has been better in his best seasons than Pedroia has been in his best season.
 
#109
#109
JTrainDavis said:
Which is a popularity award, has been since the early 90's.
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It's been a popularity award the whole time they've been awarding it.

Jeter hasn't deserved a single one of his Gold Gloves. He's good at going to his right, scooping the ball out and making the deep throw to first -- but the only problem is that what's a tough, deep throw to first for him is a routine, ho-hum play for 80 percent of major league shortstops. I respect Jeter as a player, admire him as a hitter, but I don't think there's been a player with a more undeserved defensive reputation in my lifetime.
 
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#110
#110
I'll throw my hat in with those who believe that Jeter is one of the most (if not the most) overrated players of the last 25 years. Among shortstops, he's a pretty clear 5th (or worse) in that time span, behind Ozzie, Ripken, Rodriguez, and Larkin.

As far as actually playing shortstop, Jeter is and always has been marginally better than Jose Offerman, who himself was only slightly better than a ferret.
 
#111
#111
Ozzie? Really? Elite fielder, no bat at all, a great smile and a gymnastics show taking the field.

He's quite overrated himself.
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#112
#112
JTrainDavis said:
Ozzie? Really? Elite fielder, no bat at all, a great smile and a gymnastics show taking the field.

He's quite overrated himself.
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If you break it down by range factor (putouts + assists), it looks like Ozzie made roughly half a play a game more than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 5.22 plays; league average during his career: 4.78.) So let's say having Ozzie at short gets you 80 more outs a year than average.

Derek Jeter, again by range factor, has made almost half a play a game LESS than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 4.13 plays; league avg: 4.55.) So let's say that having Jeter at short gets you 70 outs a year less than average.

So add them together, and having Ozzie at short instead of Jeter is worth 150 defensive outs over the course of a year -- one per game. In order just to break even, Jeter's got to get on base 150 times a year more than Ozzie. Jeter has averaged 206 hits and 67 walks a year, so he's on base 273 times a year; Ozzie averaged 155 hits and (also) 67 walks a year, so he was on base 222 times a year. So Jeter only gets on base roughly 51 times a year more than Ozzie did. So he's still a hundred outs a year short of breaking even.

I'll take Ozzie's defense over Jeter's bat any day.
 
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#113
#113
Vercingetorix said:
If you break it down by range factor (putouts + assists), it looks like Ozzie made roughly half a play a game more than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 5.22 plays; league average during his career: 4.78.) So let's say having Ozzie at short gets you 80 more outs a year than average.

Derek Jeter, again by range factor, has made almost half a play a game LESS than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 4.13 plays; league avg: 4.55.) So let's say that having Jeter at short gets you 70 outs a year less than average.

So add them together, and having Ozzie at short instead of Jeter is worth 150 defensive outs over the course of a year -- one per game. In order just to break even, Jeter's got to get on base 150 times a year more than Ozzie. Jeter has averaged 206 hits and 67 walks a year, so he's on base 273 times a year; Ozzie averaged 155 hits and (also) 67 walks a year, so he was on base 222 times a year. So Jeter only gets on base roughly 51 times a year more than Ozzie did. So he's still a hundred outs a year short of breaking even.

I'll take Ozzie's defense over Jeter's bat any day.
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Come playoff time you can have Ozzie's D and ill take Jeet's bat with the game on the line.

That's what has separated Jeter from so many others. His consistent timely performance overshadows any range deficiency.
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#115
#115
Vercingetorix said:
If you break it down by range factor (putouts + assists), it looks like Ozzie made roughly half a play a game more than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 5.22 plays; league average during his career: 4.78.) So let's say having Ozzie at short gets you 80 more outs a year than average.

Derek Jeter, again by range factor, has made almost half a play a game LESS than the average shortstop. (Career RF/9 innings: 4.13 plays; league avg: 4.55.) So let's say that having Jeter at short gets you 70 outs a year less than average.

So add them together, and having Ozzie at short instead of Jeter is worth 150 defensive outs over the course of a year -- one per game. In order just to break even, Jeter's got to get on base 150 times a year more than Ozzie. Jeter has averaged 206 hits and 67 walks a year, so he's on base 273 times a year; Ozzie averaged 155 hits and (also) 67 walks a year, so he was on base 222 times a year. So Jeter only gets on base roughly 51 times a year more than Ozzie did. So he's still a hundred outs a year short of breaking even.

I'll take Ozzie's defense over Jeter's bat any day.
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To steal your SLG% argument from earlier in the thread, Jeter has averaged over 100 more total bases per season over a career, and a career OPS+ 31 points higher.

You can't cite power numbers in one case and ignore them and use pure OBP to compare total offensive value in the next.
 
#116
#116
JTrainDavis said:
To steal your SLG% argument from earlier in the thread, Jeter has averaged over 100 more total bases per season over a career, and a career OPS+ 31 points higher.

You can't cite power numbers in one case and ignore them and use pure OBP to compare total offensive value in the next.
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I started to type another paragraph in that post about how it was obviously a quick and dirty estimate just to establish a rough order of magnitude in how the offense and defense might interact, but it was two in the morning and I said F it, if somebody calls me out on the numbers then I'll just finish the point in the morning. The two glaring shortcomings of the way I did it are A) Jeter obviously had more power than Ozzie, and B) if you're serious about the comparison, you've got to use something other than just raw H + BB numbers because Jeter gets 70 plate appearances a year more than Ozzie did (from hitting at the top of the order). A works in Jeter's favor; B in Smith's.

I still think it works as a rough estimate. If those range factor numbers are accurate, then Ozzie's glove was worth so many extra plays in the field that Jeter's bat isn't going to make up for it. Ozzie wasn't a complete disaster at the plate, after all -- he did have almost 2500 hits.
 
#117
#117
Heebs said:
Come playoff time you can have Ozzie's D and ill take Jeet's bat with the game on the line.

That's what has separated Jeter from so many others. His consistent timely performance overshadows any range deficiency.
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Jeter's OPS is in the postseason is only 15 points higher than his career regular-season OPS (850 vs 836). If you're going to argue that that's anything more than just a random fluctuation, then you have to come up with an explanation for why he's been so spectacular in the first round of the playoffs (955 OPS), his ordinary regular-season self in the World Series (832), and so crummy in the ALCS (756 OPS; career LCS batting average: .258). If Jeter is so clutch and awesome in the postseason, why has he sucked in the ALCS?

It seems a lot more likely that Jeter's the same player all the time, both in the regular season and the playoffs. I assume that if "clutch playoff hitter" were a real skill that Jeter actually possesses, he wouldn't just turn it off in the ALCS every time.
 
#118
#118
vols kick balls said:
But you act as if the hitting is that close. Jeter has been better in his best seasons than Pedroia has been in his best season.
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They are very comparable hitters.

Jeter is a career .313 hitter. I bet that Pedroia is near that mark before it is all said and done.

Neirther are going to give you elite power but decent pop.

Jeter also strikes out twice as many times as Pedroia does.
 
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