Is secession the answer?

#5
#5
tnmarktx said:
Would secession solve our gridlocked partisan divided government and in general be better for society?
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Secession would destroy the government, not solve the gridlocked partisan divide. If I am presented with a problem in which I am to solve for x and I decide to burn the sheet of paper, I have not solved the problem.

Would secession be better for society? Depends on which generation we are speaking of. For our generation? No. Secession is usually accompanied by bitter and bloody warfare. Would secession be better for the societies of future generations? Maybe. Do I care about the future generations? No.

I am not a fan of this government. But, I am less a fan of secession, especially secession for the sake of secession. If there was a good plan and massive agreement, then sure. However, if that existed, then so too would movements to radically amend the current government.
 
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#6
#6
From the Union or from the State?

Going by that article I would think he is referring to seceding from the state.

Except for Vermont
 
#7
#7
therealUT said:
Secession would destroy the government, not solve the gridlocked partisan divide. If I am presented with a problem in which I am to solve for x and I decide to burn the sheet of paper, I have not solved the problem.

Would secession be better for society? Depends on which generation we are speaking of. For our generation? No. Secession is usually accompanied by bitter and bloody warfare. Would secession be better for the societies of future generations? Maybe. Do I care about the future generations? No.

I am not a fan of this government. But, I am less a fan of secession, especially secession for the sake of secession. If there was a good plan and massive agreement, then sure. However, if that existed, then so too would movements to radically amend the current government.
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I disagree

The examples put forth in the OP were California, Colorado, Maryland and Vermont. None of which are asking to secede from the Union. They are trying to form a separate state. I don't think a bloody war would break out over that, it may actually be better in the long run if they are allowed to break off and form their own state.

Unless someone can solve the problem of Urban control over Rural/Suburban districts.

Edit: actually Vermont sounded like it wanted to secede from the Union
 
#8
#8
MontereyVol said:
I disagree

The examples put forth in the OP were California, Colorado, Maryland and Vermont. None of which are asking to secede from the Union. They are trying to form a separate state. I don't think a bloody war would break out over that, it may actually be better in the long run if they are allowed to break off and form their own state.

Unless someone can solve the problem of Urban control over Rural/Suburban districts.

Edit: actually Vermont sounded like it wanted to secede from the Union
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One can also add SW Kansas to the list, as they have wanted to form a separate state for at least my entire lifetime. The problem is that the division of a state comes with the addition of two Senators. It is a problem of political power at the Federal level, and, in order to retain certain balances of power, other states are going to push to divide and to accrue Senate representation. The Civil War was about slavery and slave-power; i.e., the representation slave states had due to slavery (3/5ths) and that is the representation they were bound to lose if slavery were abolished.

Everyone with any political acumen in the US knows that if Colorado, Kansas, Maryland, and California divide, the GOP will gain eight extra Senators. Out of 108 total Senators, the GOP would now have 54, compared to 52 DNC Senators (plus two Independents who often vote with the DNC). That is a huge shift of power; and, that shift does not even take into account the shift in the Electoral College which would follow.

Maybe you are right, maybe such changes could occur without being bitter and bloody. I have my reservations, though.
 
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#9
#9
therealUT said:
Secession would destroy the government, not solve the gridlocked partisan divide. If I am presented with a problem in which I am to solve for x and I decide to burn the sheet of paper, I have not solved the problem.

Would secession be better for society? Depends on which generation we are speaking of. For our generation? No. Secession is usually accompanied by bitter and bloody warfare. Would secession be better for the societies of future generations? Maybe. Do I care about the future generations? No.

I am not a fan of this government. But, I am less a fan of secession, especially secession for the sake of secession. If there was a good plan and massive agreement, then sure. However, if that existed, then so too would movements to radically amend the current government.
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Peaceful secession would be optimal, but what if the government is so broken that war is the only way? Would be better then to spiral toward communism IMO.
 
#12
#12
therealUT said:
One can also add SW Kansas to the list, as they have wanted to form a separate state for at least my entire lifetime. The problem is that the division of a state comes with the addition of two Senators. It is a problem of political power at the Federal level, and, in order to retain certain balances of power, other states are going to push to divide and to accrue Senate representation. The Civil War was about slavery and slave-power; i.e., the representation slave states had due to slavery (3/5ths) and that is the representation they were bound to lose if slavery were abolished.

Everyone with any political acumen in the US knows that if Colorado, Kansas, Maryland, and California divide, the GOP will gain eight extra Senators. Out of 108 total Senators, the GOP would now have 54, compared to 52 DNC Senators (plus two Independents who often vote with the DNC). That is a huge shift of power; and, that shift does not even take into account the shift in the Electoral College which would follow.

Maybe you are right, maybe such changes could occur without being bitter and bloody. I have my reservations, though.
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The same argument could be applied to Texas turning blue in the near future (as some think it will). If it does the Presidential race would be all but over for the Repubs so I can see certain parties making pushes that they think will favor them in the future.

What we would have is a permanent party in the Senate and Executive and the war will be for the House. Though I would believe the Repubs would win that more often than not?

I can easily see this devolving down into a conflict between Urban vs everyone else.
 
#13
#13
MontereyVol said:
The same argument could be applied to Texas turning blue in the near future (as some think it will). If it does the Presidential race would be all but over for the Repubs so I can see certain parties making pushes that they think will favor them in the future.
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If it does, I do fear violent revolt.
 
#16
#16
therealUT said:
If it does, I do fear violent revolt.
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One of these days it will happen, might be within the next 20 years or could be 100 years but it will happen. Just the law of averages.

We have too many different cultures, wants, needs and ideas of how this country should work. They all can't work together forever.
 
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#17
#17
hog88 said:
One of these days it will happen, might be within the next 20 years or could be 100 years but it will happen. Just the law of averages.

We have too many different cultures, wants, needs and ideas of how this country should work. They all can't work together forever.
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No... It won't.


And this is not a valid application of "law of averages."
 
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#19
#19
therealUT said:
Secession would destroy the government, not solve the gridlocked partisan divide. If I am presented with a problem in which I am to solve for x and I decide to burn the sheet of paper, I have not solved the problem.

Would secession be better for society? Depends on which generation we are speaking of. For our generation? No. Secession is usually accompanied by bitter and bloody warfare. Would secession be better for the societies of future generations? Maybe. Do I care about the future generations? No.

I am not a fan of this government. But, I am less a fan of secession, especially secession for the sake of secession. If there was a good plan and massive agreement, then sure. However, if that existed, then so too would movements to radically amend the current government.
Click to expand...

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine

I agree any secession movement will have bloody and dire consequences. Take our own Civil War for example. Major difference is today the geographical dividing lines are a little more blurry but the politics are just as strong. But the division in the American people is eerily similar to what happened in the 1850s leading up to the Civil War.

I would not be opposed to a peaceful secession movement to help "right the wrongs" I feel are beyond what the Founders intended. But there is no way it can happen without leading to major conflict and bloodshed. And with the political factions spread out and not concentrated in one geographic location of the country, the damage would be catastrophic and the fighting would reach into every place in America.

But not only would it be along political lines. Actually, I feel that would be the least of the conflict. But also along racial and sociological lines. Black versus white. Hispanic versus Asian. Anarchist versus control. Christian against Islamist. And last but not least, military versus military. It would be an utter mess and far more disastrous than our last Civil War.

And furthermore the world will be hugely affected since our conflict will spread to other nations as our economy collapses and brings theirs along with it. And you have a domino effect after that.

It's nothing anyone should hope for, but Thomas Paine was correct that I'd rather fight in my time than have my children have to go through the horrors of war on that scale. I've already seen up close what sectarian warfare looks like and I have no desire for my children to witness it.
 
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#24
#24
The states have a right to secede from the union. I am not against it, but am afraid that we might end up with something worse than we have now.

If there is a government confiscation of fire arms or an active government persecution of certain religions or removal of free speech then I believe it is time to leave.
 
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#25
#25
LibertyVol said:
The states have a right to secede from the union. I am not against it, but am afraid that we might end up with something worse than we have now.

If there is a government confiscation of fire arms or an active government persecution of certain religions or removal of free speech then I believe it is time to leave.
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Whether or not they have a legal right to secede is something that has been debated by many. While the right to secede could fall under the 10th Amendment, it's nothing clear cut and the social contract theory basically says otherwise.

But of course, any formal government will deny the secession movement as being illegal. Reference Russia and Chechnya for example. And I figure our power mongers in Washington would say and do the same thing.

Just depends on who has the ability to do so and make it stick. Not many States out there that have the ability to secede without being dependent on the rest of the country for something or other.
 
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