Is signing a PG a must?

[krichunaka]

Good points:

Let's break this down a bit further

1.Being able to handle pressure defense and break a press is key issue. It is possible that Kellie could find a set of players who could function as press breakers and they might not necessarily be the main PG. And some of this adaptation would also involving better coaching on how to handle the press more effectively. But potentially, along with Jordan, Rennie, Rae, Davis, and perhaps even Marta might be able to function in that capacity. But, this potential vulnerability is a concern. This conversation brings back memories of Shannon Bobbitt just driving teams insane with her ability to cut through a press, like a hot knife through butter.

2. Over the years, a fairly constant stream of criticism has been the team lacked a "real PG" and then players in that role took the blame for the team's suboptimal half court offense. If the LVs had better half court schemes, however, it becomes easier to be effective at PG. So we have a little bit of a chicken and egg dilemma. And the key to half-court sets is ball movement and player movement off the ball. So, having the ball in the PGs hands to long can be counter productive.

So, I think the more crucial issue may be solving the long standing puzzle of the LVs half court offense struggles. When a half court offense is really working, it is not always clear who is PG. This is a best world example but in the Golden State Warriors in their prime, technically played Steph Curry at PG but more often than not Draymond Green made the key passes as a point forward, sometimes it was Durant, sometimes it was Klay.

My point is that game and players are evolving to such an extent that these rigid positional classification may be obsolete or a sign of running an obsolete offense.

Yep.
It could just be an incidental trend, but to date we can vividly see Coach Harper's skills and body prototype: Setting aside the fives (though some of them fit particular aspects), we are long, rugged, rangy ...and essentially ambidextrous. In every video, we see them play on both sides of the court, and dribbling and shooting with either hand. The players she's signed, and a few she's apparently after - Puckett and Salenbien, among others - are of this mold. If Jordan Horston is to be our point guard (no reason to think she's isn't), the pattern isn't altered. Marta stated that she expects to "move around like all the players" (paraphrasing, and obviously excluding our fives). BTW, a very impressive, and revealing interview.

So, your theory holds true. We must be better with the basketball, which will obviously reduce at least some pressure on the Point. Bottom line: Our ball security was often as bad as I remember seeing this side of high school.

With better focus - and I will just add Court Vision - we have ourselves a much-improved offensive team.

*Just to add: I think Coach Kellie and staff are fervently seeking that Bobbitt-type point guard.

Cheers, Madtown.

 

[NeedOrange]

In my opinion, the main ingredients for being able to play point guard successfully are developed early in a child's life and can't be taught in an offseason at the college level. No, I'm not talking about dribbling skills or shooting or passing skills. But the mentality of a future strong point guard -- high confidence and courage -- is usually discovered very early on as kids play. By the time a kid reaches college she should have already proved she was able to handle the extra pressure that comes with the most important position in basketball. Having more responsibility than anyone else besides the coach isn't for everyone, and if a player doesn't thrive on handling that pressure, I'm not sure that can be taught.

But I could be wrong! lol

good post. also leadership, intelligence, the ability to make quick decisions, and a committed relationship to the coach. KJH knows what she needs in a point and she will get her player in the near future. She may not be a top 10 player but she, IMO, will be the right player.

 

[T.J.]

I'm liking this new development. TBH I wasn't enamored w/Jazz & Zay playmaking or lack thereof. When I looked at them all I could see was Holly.

Four Lady Vols departed. So, it's clearly a new team now. That's how I'm looking at it. I have no control on how this team is going to perform. All I can do is fantasize on how I want this New LV team to perform.

I want them to perform like The Tennessee Lady Vols of yore. Are y'all picking up what I'm putting down.

20/21 Let's Go Lady Vols

Rennia Davis All American 1st team. Playing like another version of Chamique Holdsclaw! Except Rennia's a better scorer @ 26 pts a game.

Jordan Horston aka Ms. Triple Double. If Horston stops with turnovers & becomes a legit threat at point guard just like Kara Lawson was back in the day. I will be one HaPpY Lady Vols FAN!

I'm hoping, wishin' & praying that Rennia & Jordan becomes two of our best players with a will to win games. I want them taking over games and win.

No more losses.
We're TENNESSEE! We got to get our mojo back. I'm thinking the four newcomers are going to give us a lot more wins than the four that departed.


Our Bigs KK, Teoni & Emily are going to have to channel the likes of She-Hulk, Storm & Captain Marvel. If they'll make that jump? We're in it to win it all.

GoLadyVols!

 

[LasVegasBill23]

PG most important position..... so my answer is yes, we do need to find a PG not just a substitute PG....

 

[glv98]

Good points:

Let's break this down a bit further

1.Being able to handle pressure defense and break a press is key issue. It is possible that Kellie could find a set of players who could function as press breakers and they might not necessarily be the main PG. And some of this adaptation would also involving better coaching on how to handle the press more effectively. But potentially, along with Jordan, Rennie, Rae, Davis, and perhaps even Marta might be able to function in that capacity. But, this potential vulnerability is a concern. This conversation brings back memories of Shannon Bobbitt just driving teams insane with her ability to cut through a press, like a hot knife through butter.

2. Over the years, a fairly constant stream of criticism has been the team lacked a "real PG" and then players in that role took the blame for the team's suboptimal half court offense. If the LVs had better half court schemes, however, it becomes easier to be effective at PG. So we have a little bit of a chicken and egg dilemma. And the key to half-court sets is ball movement and player movement off the ball. So, having the ball in the PGs hands to long can be counter productive.

So, I think the more crucial issue may be solving the long standing puzzle of the LVs half court offense struggles. When a half court offense is really working, it is not always clear who is PG. This is a best world example but the Golden State Warriors in their prime, technically played Steph Curry at PG but more often than not Draymond Green made the key passes as a point forward, sometimes it was Durant, sometimes it was Klay.

My point is that game and players are evolving to such an extent that these rigid positional classification may be obsolete or a sign of running an obsolete offense.

The long standing puzzle of the LV offense, as we've defined it, is very unlikely to be solved by the lineup as we see it evolving right now. An efficient half court offense based on movement and passing with a high number of assisted baskets is not going to happen with a core of 3 players with games based on creating their own shots and lots of one on one. The hope has to be the one on one guys (the "wild ponies") get a favorable enough defensive matchup to outscore our continued inefficiency. I'm sure the ponies will be able to do this against lesser competition but the concern is doing it against the better defensive teams. Especially without a good halfcourt offense to fall back on.

Worrisome to me is that absent some major off season improvement, we still lack a consistent outside shooter and a reliable handle against full court pressure. We also have not yet upgraded quickness on the perimeter, an issue often identified as a big need last season on both offense and defense. I look for lots of backcourt ball pressure and lots of zone defense against us.

You may be correct that the traditional pg as defined floor leader, high efficiency assist to t.o. guy looking to pass more than score is obsolete offense, and that appears to be KJH approach as well, whether by design or default. Sure hope she's right and that we have the personnel to pull it off.

 

[Volfan2012]

If were planning on the top part of the league we absolutely need a terrific player to help us at the point. This would be based on position by position analysis of the 2019-2020 team.

WF- Production was high at this position 653 points scored, average 21.06 points per game, 75 percent free throw shooting, 42 three pointers, 111 of 148 free throws. Position shot at a .455 percentage so overall this position would get a B plus as you need a little higher shooting percentage and a few more three pointers made to qualify for an A. 250 of 550 from the field is solid for this position.

PF- This position was the worst on the team. 257 points scored, 8.09 points per game, 71 percent free throw shooting, 22 three pointers, 27 of 38 free throws. Position shot .385 from the field so you can see the production was horrible and we really needed an upgrade here. Lack of being able to get to the free throw line and very poor shooting made this position an F as you must get more than 8 points from your four position. Green should really upgrade this position only worry with her is her free throw shooting. 104 of 270 from the field not what you need from a key position.

C-This position was solid in many ways but also had a few flaws offensively. 429 points scores, 13.83 points per game, .552 free throw shooting, 0 three pointers, 85 of 154 free throws. Position shot .544 from the field so overall this position would get about a C+ have to downgrade a lot for poor free throw shooting and some weak play and demanding of the ball in every game we played. 172 of 316 from the field this position needs to get around 500 shot attempts in a season.

SG-This position did not have the percentage it needed and the free throw shooting was horrible. 454 points scored, average was 14.65 points per game, .574 free throw percentage, 52 three pointers, 58 of 101 from the free throw line. Position shot .403 from the field so the shooting was way below what you need here percentage wise. This position would get a D because you must have 70 percent or better free throw shooting from the two position and you must get at least close to 45 percent from the field. 172 of 426 overall this position took way to many shot attempts considering their offensive production.

PG- Finally to point guard huge position on the floor and we got a satisfactory performance as far as assists although way to may turnovers and this position was weak offensively. 384 points scored, 12.39 points per game, 68 percent free throw shooting, 42 three pointers, 52 of 76 from the free throw line. Position shot .393 very weak and less that 75 percent from the line for this position is not an option for success. I grade them out as a D+ mainly because a great job was done of distributing the ball even if there were to many turnovers in the process of doing so. 145 of 369 from the field has to be a lot better. You really don't need 369 shots from this position if your shooting it at 39 percent.

This is why we needed a huge upgrade at the power forward and point guard positions. Green gives us that player and hopefully McCoy will be a better player next season as well. Of course were expecting Horston to be vastly improved next season which would mean at least 45 percent from the field and 70 percent from the line.
Team needs to add someone that can shoot 45 percent from the field and over 70 from the line to back her up. I think it is asking a lot of a freshman to do that in their first season because all players need time to adjust to the speed of the college game. Improving at the power forward position getting better shooting from the two position, Centers have to make free throws and get more shot attempts. The point guard must turn the ball over less, shoot the ball better both from the field and at the line if were going to be an improved team next season.

One thing we don't know about this coaching staff is whether they have what it takes to improve players year to year. I will say it did happen to Missouri State players under Harper's watch. Will be watching to see how much Key, Saunders, Horston, and Rennie have progressed from their freshman seasons. You also hope that Burrell who seemed to improve under Harper during the season is able to advance to another level. Player development will be the key factor of how well we finish in the SEC and advance beyond next season.

Here is the way I see the depth chart with the players we have on the roster at this time:

WF-Davis, Rodriguez
PF-Green, McCoy
C-Key, KK, Saunders
2G-Burrell, Darby
PG-Horston, Salary? Darby? Rodriguez?

To be really solid team we need another top PG think we'll be fine if we can accomplish getting that one more player.

 

[glv98]

Wow, workman like analysis. So if a player switched btw 2 positions, such as JH btw SG and PG, do her stats count in both areas? Are the grades and stats for the position, not the player? I ask bc our starting PG did shoot more than 75% free throws and did have a relatively low number of t.o.s, both areas the position got downgraded for.

I agree, a plan B and/or a very solid reliever at PG is an absolute must. Not fair, nor realistic, to ask JH to take it all on herself.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Jordan will shut this site up this next season

 

[Coach Jumper]

Wow, workman like analysis. So if a player switched btw 2 positions, such as JH btw SG and PG, do her stats count in both areas? Are the grades and stats for whoever played the position at any time?

I agree, a plan B and/or a very solid reliever at PG is an absolute must. Not fair, nor realistic, to ask JH to take it all on herself.

agree Jordan needs a true PG backup
DO NOT agree she needs a replacement

 

[VolBall09]

Wow, workman like analysis. So if a player switched btw 2 positions, such as JH btw SG and PG, do her stats count in both areas? Are the grades and stats for the position, not the player? I ask bc our starting PG did shoot more than 75% free throws and did have a relatively low number of t.o.s, both areas the position got downgraded for.

I agree, a plan B and/or a very solid reliever at PG is an absolute must. Not fair, nor realistic, to ask JH to take it all on herself.

Sabrina switched between the 1 and 2 a lot during her sophomore and junior seasons. Cazorla ran the point a lot. Sabrina still qualified for and won the Nancy Liberman award. I would say it counts. Just my opinion though. You can still end up running the offense from the 2 guard spot as well. Often Cazorla would bring the ball up and Sabrina would initiate the offense off screening action from the wing.

 

[glv98]

Sabrina switched between the 1 and 2 a lot during her sophomore and junior seasons. Cazorla ran the point a lot. Sabrina still qualified for and won the Nancy Liberman award. I would say it counts. Just my opinion though. You can still end up running the offense from the 2 guard spot as well. Often Cazorla would bring the ball up and Sabrina would initiate the offense off screening action from the wing.

My question was are your stats and grades based on position, no matter who was playing it, or on who started at the position. I'm pretty sure your stats were for the position, no matter who was playing it.

 

[VolBall09]

My question was are your stats and grades based on position, no matter who was playing it, or on who started at the position. I'm pretty sure your stats were for the position, no matter who was playing it.

Ah I see what you mean. And yes that seems right to me.

 

[glv98]

agree Jordan needs a true PG backup
DO NOT agree she needs a replacement

Remains to be seen. Since significant ball handling improvement above and beyond what we've seen is vital to her success, IMO it would be irresponsible coaching to the max not to have, or at least try to get, a viable option. Best case scenario that option gives rest and relief without a dropoff, plus relieves the pressure on a still young PG of having to do it all, plus be a major scoring contributor.

I'm not sure why anyone who is a huge JH admirer (Chuck Norris!) wouldn't be the biggest advocate for this.

 

[Bballnut1952]

Her turnovers were for the most part passes that were not caught bc they weren't expected, That will change with familiarization between her and her teammates.

You have said this a few times and I have to say I don’t believe that is a true statement.

I have watched hours of her play last season, like most people here.

Her turnovers, for the most part, were due to her own mistakes. Of course there were some passes that her teammate should have handled, but that was by far the least of them.

She can improve for sure. But it won’t be because her teammates get more familiar with her.

 

[glv98]

You have said this a few times and I have to say I don’t believe that is a true statement.

I have watched hours of her play last season, like most people here.

Her turnovers, for the most part, were due to her own mistakes. Of course there were some passes that her teammate should have handles, but that was by far the least of them.

She can improve for sure. But it won’t be because her teammates get more familiar with her.

LOL I've ignored that assertion the last half dozen or so times I've seen it, mostly bc its so irrational. What we have is a dynamic of absolutes, where a certain player is chosen by certain posters and thereafter can never do anything wrong nor be noted for any mistake without righteous indignation and deflection. Then comes victimization, the player is being unfairly beat up on and probably being run away from the program. No actual, unbiased analysis of that chosen player is possible in that world.

 

[Bballnut1952]

LOL I've ignored that assertion the last half dozen or so times I've seen it, mostly bc its so irrational. What we have is a dynamic of absolutes, where a certain player is chosen by certain posters and thereafter can never do anything wrong nor be noted for any mistake without righteous indignation and deflection. Then comes victimization, the player is being unfairly beat up on and probably being run away from the program. No actual, unbiased analysis of that chosen player is possible in that world.

Well, I wasn’t going there....lol. Just wanted to give my opinion based on personal observations.

I just hope I don’t see the phrase “as a coach” in response to my post.

 

[Orange Maniac]

Well, I wasn’t going there....lol. Just wanted to give my opinion based on personal observations.

I just hope I don’t see the phrase “as a coach” in response to my post.

A person is not a coach unless they are coaching.

 

[Coach Jumper]

A person is not a coach unless they are coaching.

And a doctor is not a doctor unless operating
get real!

and who says I'm not

 

[Coach Jumper]

LOL I've ignored that assertion the last half dozen or so times I've seen it, mostly bc its so irrational. What we have is a dynamic of absolutes, where a certain player is chosen by certain posters and thereafter can never do anything wrong nor be noted for any mistake without righteous indignation and deflection. Then comes victimization, the player is being unfairly beat up on and probably being run away from the program. No actual, unbiased analysis of that chosen player is possible in that world.

I never said Jordan didn't need growth or didn't make mistakes...I simply "as a coach" defend my players if they are pin-pointed for one aspect of their game and not appreciated for what they did that vastly outweighed their shortcomings.

Also, freshmen become sophomores,, it happened to Ren it happened to Jaz and it will happen to Jordan

 

[Prophet1]

If were planning on the top part of the league we absolutely need a terrific player to help us at the point. This would be based on position by position analysis of the 2019-2020 team.

WF- Production was high at this position 653 points scored, average 21.06 points per game, 75 percent free throw shooting, 42 three pointers, 111 of 148 free throws. Position shot at a .455 percentage so overall this position would get a B plus as you need a little higher shooting percentage and a few more three pointers made to qualify for an A. 250 of 550 from the field is solid for this position.

PF- This position was the worst on the team. 257 points scored, 8.09 points per game, 71 percent free throw shooting, 22 three pointers, 27 of 38 free throws. Position shot .385 from the field so you can see the production was horrible and we really needed an upgrade here. Lack of being able to get to the free throw line and very poor shooting made this position an F as you must get more than 8 points from your four position. Green should really upgrade this position only worry with her is her free throw shooting. 104 of 270 from the field not what you need from a key position.

C-This position was solid in many ways but also had a few flaws offensively. 429 points scores, 13.83 points per game, .552 free throw shooting, 0 three pointers, 85 of 154 free throws. Position shot .544 from the field so overall this position would get about a C+ have to downgrade a lot for poor free throw shooting and some weak play and demanding of the ball in every game we played. 172 of 316 from the field this position needs to get around 500 shot attempts in a season.

SG-This position did not have the percentage it needed and the free throw shooting was horrible. 454 points scored, average was 14.65 points per game, .574 free throw percentage, 52 three pointers, 58 of 101 from the free throw line. Position shot .403 from the field so the shooting was way below what you need here percentage wise. This position would get a D because you must have 70 percent or better free throw shooting from the two position and you must get at least close to 45 percent from the field. 172 of 426 overall this position took way to many shot attempts considering their offensive production.

PG- Finally to point guard huge position on the floor and we got a satisfactory performance as far as assists although way to may turnovers and this position was weak offensively. 384 points scored, 12.39 points per game, 68 percent free throw shooting, 42 three pointers, 52 of 76 from the free throw line. Position shot .393 very weak and less that 75 percent from the line for this position is not an option for success. I grade them out as a D+ mainly because a great job was done of distributing the ball even if there were to many turnovers in the process of doing so. 145 of 369 from the field has to be a lot better. You really don't need 369 shots from this position if your shooting it at 39 percent.

This is why we needed a huge upgrade at the power forward and point guard positions. Green gives us that player and hopefully McCoy will be a better player next season as well. Of course were expecting Horston to be vastly improved next season which would mean at least 45 percent from the field and 70 percent from the line.
Team needs to add someone that can shoot 45 percent from the field and over 70 from the line to back her up. I think it is asking a lot of a freshman to do that in their first season because all players need time to adjust to the speed of the college game. Improving at the power forward position getting better shooting from the two position, Centers have to make free throws and get more shot attempts. The point guard must turn the ball over less, shoot the ball better both from the field and at the line if were going to be an improved team next season.

One thing we don't know about this coaching staff is whether they have what it takes to improve players year to year. I will say it did happen to Missouri State players under Harper's watch. Will be watching to see how much Key, Saunders, Horston, and Rennie have progressed from their freshman seasons. You also hope that Burrell who seemed to improve under Harper during the season is able to advance to another level. Player development will be the key factor of how well we finish in the SEC and advance beyond next season.

Here is the way I see the depth chart with the players we have on the roster at this time:

WF-Davis, Rodriguez
PF-Green, McCoy
C-Key, KK, Saunders
2G-Burrell, Darby
PG-Horston, Salary? Darby? Rodriguez?

To be really solid team we need another top PG think we'll be fine if we can accomplish getting that one more player.

Amazing post .

 

[Bballnut1952]

I never said Jordan didn't need growth or didn't make mistakes...I simply "as a coach" defend my players if they are pin-pointed for one aspect of their game and not appreciated for what they did that vastly outweighed their shortcomings.

Also, freshmen become sophomores,, it happened to Ren it happened to Jaz and it will happen to Jordan

She doesn’t need defending from the truth and the truth is most of her mistakes were her own doing, and to blame most of them on her teammates is just wrong.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Also players and parents and recruits read this site.
I KNOW this to be true

Yes, I wish they didn't, as people on here think they don't ,,, but they do.

In my years on here I have evidence firsthand that all three follow this site
NOT ALL Of the players, parents and recruits, but some do.
And once they tune in, it becomes a compulsion to watch it

I never watch soap operas, ever.
Yet, while I was in the Army, the "Luke and Laura" story in General Hospital was on daily in the CQ lounge.
The people in CQ (Charge of Quarters) started watching it and the following grew.
It became "mandatory tv"
I had CQ duty and since it was on tv, I got caught up in it too
I watched that stupid program for the 18 months I was in NAS(Naval Air Station)-Pensacola.
To this day, I wonder why

Because it was on, there was nothing else holding my attention, other people were discussing it and I tuned in.
I believe the same thing happens to parents, players and recruits.
They learn of it and see it and get drawn in.
VolNation is on, people discuss it and there not much else to do right now.

 

[Coach Jumper]

She doesn’t need defending from the truth and the truth is most of her mistakes were her own doing, and to blame most of them on her teammates is just wrong.

watch the games again
I never said all and even referenced that I felt it to be about 1/4 of her TO's being drops or missed-movement reads
Both of which can be lowered with familiarity

 

[Prophet1]

Remains to be seen. Since significant ball handling improvement above and beyond what we've seen is vital to her success, IMO it would be irresponsible coaching to the max not to have, or at least try to get, a viable option. Best case scenario that option gives rest and relief without a dropoff, plus relieves the pressure on a still young PG of having to do it all, plus be a major scoring contributor.

I'm not sure why anyone who is a huge JH admirer (Chuck Norris!) wouldn't be the biggest advocate for this.

Sigh

 

[Coach Jumper]

agree


Yes she needs a backup