Islam in historical context.

#26
#26
I'm destroying several Southern Baptist churches and building huge mosques atop their smoking ruins.

Mozeltoff!!!

You're probably the one who set fire to Sarah Palin's church, right?








I think you should take away from his posts that not all ancient, decrepit, senile, bigotted inmates of nursing homes should be given unfettered access to the internet. I thought that was clear.

Get back to me when you get over your potty training issues.








So...what's the deal, GS?

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To argue that islam and Christianity are the same because they are both 'religions' is probably the most idiotic argument ever introduced in world history.

Surely the most moronic of all the arguments presented by secular humanists!








most honest answer I can make- it's not possible in this forum if you're included

All things are possible but it will always be difficult as long as you and milo are permitted to be monitors of this board.

Shiite anti-Sunni Rhetoric: Wahhabi Fatwa Allows Sodomy for Jihad Purposes - YouTube!

London-Based Shiite Cleric Abdallah Al-Khilaf: Wahhabi Fatwa Permits Sodomy to Widen the Anus as a Means to Jihad The Internet, Fadak TV (U.K.) - June 16, 2012
 
#27
#27
You're probably the one who set fire to Sarah Palin's church, right?

Who? Oh, do you mean the bimbo who failed at being a governor and quit, and then failed as a VP candidate and quit politics, and then failed as a reality show queen? So she has a church now? No need to set it afire, she'll fail at whatever she's doing with a church and quit again.
 
#28
#28
gsvol said:
All things are possible but it will always be difficult as long as you and milo are permitted to be monitors of this board.

So the whole thing about you insulting everyone at literally every turn has nothing to do with it?
 
#29
#29
Seriously gs, what solution do you offer? Should we wipe out every Muslim? You win the arguement on Muslim aggression. Are you now going to post the history of Christian aggression and conversion? You can do a lengthy post on Christian aggression and conversion in the "New World". Taking that into accout, PKT's post about what to take from your post is a valid to some degree. If I remember correctly, which I freely admit I might not be, the Hindu/Muslim don't really peacefully coexist, but do the Buddhists have a secret violent past of aggression and conversion I'm not aware of?

Religion has been used to justify many attrocities, both from the Muslim and the Christian perspective. Neither side is innocent of that. But it seems according to your arguement, the only way to control the "Muslim threat" would be for us(Christians) to wipe them out. Should we commit genocide in the name of Christianity? And no, I don't seriously think that is what you're saying, but what solution do you have?
 
#30
#30
What was the point of that?

All I got is that:

Organized religion is an inherently bad thing.

War is bad.

Colonization is bad.

Imperialism is bad.

History is bloody and cruel. Makes it interesting though.

Did I mention the organized religion is a terrible idea?

Oh, and Islam is no better or worse than any other organized religion.

Yep!
Actually, Islam is better than some religions if you read carefully.
 
#31
#31
Seriously gs, what solution do you offer? Should we wipe out every Muslim? You win the arguement on Muslim aggression. Are you now going to post the history of Christian aggression and conversion? You can do a lengthy post on Christian aggression and conversion in the "New World". Taking that into accout, PKT's post about what to take from your post is a valid to some degree. If I remember correctly, which I freely admit I might not be, the Hindu/Muslim don't really peacefully coexist, but do the Buddhists have a secret violent past of aggression and conversion I'm not aware of?

Religion has been used to justify many attrocities, both from the Muslim and the Christian perspective. Neither side is innocent of that. But it seems according to your arguement, the only way to control the "Muslim threat" would be for us(Christians) to wipe them out. Should we commit genocide in the name of Christianity? And no, I don't seriously think that is what you're saying, but what solution do you have?

I'll leave the expose of Christianity to you.

No excuse but the forced converions in the new world were mostly done by the Spanish who had lived several hundred years under to the rule of islam and so adopted some of their more odious tactics.

Solutions;

First we need to become aware, we need to seperate the truth from the lies.

We need to immediately stop appeasing moslems at every turn.

We need to furnish our own petroleum and quit sending a huge portion of our deficit spending to the mideast where it is in turn used against us.

We need to study what is going on in Europe now and quit making the same mistakes they have made.

We need a moratorium on legal moslem immigration to this country and end the steady flow of hamas, hezbollah and al qaeda operatives accross our southern border that has resulted in at least tens of thousands of them here now.

al-qaeda in Iraq has just promised some sort of stupendous attack on American soil soon.

No one seemed to pay attention when bin laden promised the same two weeks before 9/11.

We need to quit justifying cowardly acts such as the following:

Arab Carjackers Target Female Driver Again - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

Arabs continue to attempt carjackings in Judea and Samaria, and they continue to target female drivers, as they have in the past.

The latest incident took place Thursday night. Rabbanit (Rebbetzin) Ofra Schmidt, whose husband is the rabbi of Shavei Shomron and heads the hesder yeshiva there, too, drove eastward out of Karnei Shomron at about 11:15 p.m., toward Shavei Shomron.

Her three daughters were with her in the car.


What do you think?
 
#32
#32
Why don't you want to do one on Christianity? Are you afraid of what you'll find? Serious question.

You are aware you say no excuse then offer an excuse, correct?

Your solutions are valid points, but don't they apply to other cultures as well? Israel, our supposed ally, has had spies caught in th U.S. Does that mean we need to start turning away Jews? And cowardly attacks by anyone, regardless of race or religion, should be condemned. My point, more than anything, is that you have singled out Muslims and Muslims only. I will concede the most dangerous threats to the U.S. atm seem to be Islamists, but singling out the bad they've done while ignoring the bad of other religions is biased. The mistakes of both sides should be acknowledged.

The picture you paint is bleak with no hope of there ever being a peace. If that is indeed the case, how are we supposed to handle the problem long term? Should we actively go to war with all Muslim countries? Should we wipe out the entire Muslim faith? If hatred and imperialism is truly their only goal, then how could we ever peacefully co-exist? Should we turn nations into reservations like we created reservations for the Native Americans? If we do, should we appropriate some oil rich land for the rest of the world? While the solutions you gave have validity, they seem more like short-term answers. What should we do long-term? Your OP supports the assumption that as long as the Muslim faith exists, they will always be plotting world domination. So what do we do about that?
 
#33
#33
To argue that islam and Christianity are the same because they are both 'religions' is probably the most idiotic argument ever introduced in world history.

Surely the most moronic of all the arguments presented by secular humanists!

I did not say that they were not different on a scripture level. Although both believe in the same omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God/Allah. They differ on the significance of Jesus Christ and the message of Muhammad. Both holy scriptures are littered with violent passages that have the potential to be horrendously taken out of context and misinterpreted by interpreting such passages literally.

Now, with that being said, they are both organized religions. There is no two ways about that. Every organized religion has blood on its hands...a lot of blood. To reminisce about the bloody history of the organized Islam religion as if it is somehow different or special or more pronounced than another organized religion's (Christianity) history in hopes of proving or validating their moral/ethical/metaphysical superiority is asinine.

Organized religion is a terrible thing regardless of the particular holy scripture or metaphysical beliefs in which it is congregated. Organized religion, as a whole, has been many manifold more harmful to mankind than it has been helpful.

Your mischaracterization of Islam is ironic. Those that you keep in such disdain, the Islamic people in the Middle East who "hate" America, have horrible misconceptions of us both as a country and as a people. They believe we are a Christian country and that our military are akin to the historic Christian crusaders trying to dominate their land and breach their sovereignty. Both notions are absurd. Unfortunately, both sides' misconceptions are fueled by organized religion to the ignorant masses.
 
#37
#37
I did not say that they were not different on a scripture level. Although both believe in the same omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God/Allah. They differ on the significance of Jesus Christ and the message of Muhammad. Both holy scriptures are littered with violent passages that have the potential to be horrendously taken out of context and misinterpreted by interpreting such passages literally.

Now, with that being said, they are both organized religions. There is no two ways about that. Every organized religion has blood on its hands...a lot of blood. To reminisce about the bloody history of the organized Islam religion as if it is somehow different or special or more pronounced than another organized religion's (Christianity) history in hopes of proving or validating their moral/ethical/metaphysical superiority is asinine.

Organized religion is a terrible thing regardless of the particular holy scripture or metaphysical beliefs in which it is congregated. Organized religion, as a whole, has been many manifold more harmful to mankind than it has been helpful.

Your mischaracterization of Islam is ironic. Those that you keep in such disdain, the Islamic people in the Middle East who "hate" America, have horrible misconceptions of us both as a country and as a people. They believe we are a Christian country and that our military are akin to the historic Christian crusaders trying to dominate their land and breach their sovereignty. Both notions are absurd. Unfortunately, both sides' misconceptions are fueled by organized religion to the ignorant masses.

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How is it that I mischaracterize islam?

Islam divides the world into two spheres;

1. The house of peace = where islam dominates.

2. The house of war = any place where islam doesn't dominate.

3. All moslems are to make jihad against the house of war in some way until it becomes within the house of peace.

4. Islam seeks to rule all the world and both peaceful and violent means are sanctioned.

BTW, you can bring up what you consider errors of judgement by Christians but if you campare the historical violence of both Christianity and islam, you will find there is no comparison.

In the 20th century alone at least ten million people were slaughtered by the followers of muhammed.

The 21st century looks to be even worse if present trends continue.









Why don't you want to do one on Christianity? Are you afraid of what you'll find? Serious question.

You are aware you say no excuse then offer an excuse, correct?

Your solutions are valid points, but don't they apply to other cultures as well? Israel, our supposed ally, has had spies caught in th U.S. Does that mean we need to start turning away Jews? And cowardly attacks by anyone, regardless of race or religion, should be condemned. My point, more than anything, is that you have singled out Muslims and Muslims only. I will concede the most dangerous threats to the U.S. atm seem to be Islamists, but singling out the bad they've done while ignoring the bad of other religions is biased. The mistakes of both sides should be acknowledged.

The picture you paint is bleak with no hope of there ever being a peace. If that is indeed the case, how are we supposed to handle the problem long term? Should we actively go to war with all Muslim countries? Should we wipe out the entire Muslim faith? If hatred and imperialism is truly their only goal, then how could we ever peacefully co-exist? Should we turn nations into reservations like we created reservations for the Native Americans? If we do, should we appropriate some oil rich land for the rest of the world? While the solutions you gave have validity, they seem more like short-term answers. What should we do long-term? Your OP supports the assumption that as long as the Muslim faith exists, they will always be plotting world domination. So what do we do about that?

Islam will need to change fundamentally for there to be peace and the chances of that are practically nil.

We do need to first use some short term answers would you not agree?

If those are successful then perhaps some long term answers will present themselves.

Quigley in T&H predicted it would be handled in the following way;

There will be a balancing of powers among three spheres, America and it's allies, Russia and China and other communist bloc countries and thirdly the Arabic and Spanish speaking world.

I thought the third to be an absurd idea considering the history of conflict between Spanish and Arabic speaking peoples but look now at the coziness between Iran and Venezuela and other such alliances.

A lot smarter people than myself havn't come up with an answer that I've heard but one thing is dead certain;

"We had better not keep our heads in the sand and try to pretend there is no problem, that's suicidal!"
 
#38
#38
Ramadan Ding-Dong | FrontPage Magazine

As is customary, President Obama and wife Michelle released their annual Ramadan greetings last Friday. Also customary for Obama, it was full of platitudes about Islam’s supposedly invaluable contribution to American culture, and devoid of any acknowledgement of the dark reality of the Arab Spring that he helped facilitate.
-------------------

In ironic response, CNN posted this headline two days later: “Iraq Bombs Kill 25 People as Muslims Celebrate Ramadan.” Similar headlines followed: “Ramadan Fails to Curtail Syrian Violence.” “Muslims Begin Ramadan Fast; Bombs Hit Thai South.” “7 Shot Dead in Karachi on First Day of Ramadan.” So much for reflection, joy, and celebration.

Even if many Muslims around the world weren’t respectful of Ramadan, at least American officials in Guantanamo were. In deference to the Muslims who are vacationing – sorry, I mean incarcerated – there, they graciously postponed any court hearings to allow the murderous 9/11 plotters their time of contemplation and joy.
----------------------------

Not according to a group by the name of “Qaedat al-Jihad,” a branch of al Qaeda that has been described as one of the “affiliates of the Global Jihad movement.” :

The month of Ramadan is a month of holy war and death for Allah. It is a month for fighting the enemies of Allah and God’s messenger, the Jews and their American facilitators… The holy war is not confined to a particular arena and we shall fight the Jews and the Americans until they leave the land of Islam.
--------------------------------

Obama continued his Ramadan statement:

This year, Ramadan holds special meaning for those citizens in the Middle East and North Africa who are courageously achieving democracy and self-determination and for those who are still struggling to achieve their universal rights.

He’s referring off course to the Arab Spring, that glorious flowering of democratic freedom which has led to Islamic fundamentalists toppling regimes in Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere, threatening to create new Irans.
---------------------------

Obama again:

The United States continues to stand with those who seek the chance to decide their own destiny, to live free from fear and violence, and to practice their faith freely.

Really? This hollow claim will come as something of a bitter surprise to the Iranian Green Revolutionaries he ignored three summers ago, and to dwindling Christian communities all across the Middle East who are now being targeted in the genocidal wake of the Islamist Winter he praises so lavishly.
 
#39
#39
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How is it that I mischaracterize islam?

Islam divides the world into two spheres;

1. The house of peace = where islam dominates.

2. The house of war = any place where islam doesn't dominate.

3. All moslems are to make jihad against the house of war in some way until it becomes within the house of peace.

4. Islam seeks to rule all the world and both peaceful and violent means are sanctioned.

BTW, you can bring up what you consider errors of judgement by Christians but if you campare the historical violence of both Christianity and islam, you will find there is no comparison.

In the 20th century alone at least ten million people were slaughtered by the followers of muhammed.

The 21st century looks to be even worse if present trends continue.











Islam will need to change fundamentally for there to be peace and the chances of that are practically nil.

We do need to first use some short term answers would you not agree?

If those are successful then perhaps some long term answers will present themselves.

Quigley in T&H predicted it would be handled in the following way;

There will be a balancing of powers among three spheres, America and it's allies, Russia and China and other communist bloc countries and thirdly the Arabic and Spanish speaking world.

I thought the third to be an absurd idea considering the history of conflict between Spanish and Arabic speaking peoples but look now at the coziness between Iran and Venezuela and other such alliances.

A lot smarter people than myself havn't come up with an answer that I've heard but one thing is dead certain;

"We had better not keep our heads in the sand and try to pretend there is no problem, that's suicidal!"

I will say I'm starting to believe in isolating away from Arab countries as long as they refuse to police themselves. The U.S. cannot continue as the world police. Arab countries need to police the extremists themselves before we can really expect to exist in any kind of harmony.

Some of your short term solutions are viable and would serve as a start, but we need to have a long term plan as well.

I still don't believe all Muslims are evil, but as long as their choice of action is inaction, we cannot ignore what is done in the name of their religion.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel Muslims already living in the U.S. should be treated. Do you feel they should be allowed to continue their lives peacefully, or do you favor deportation?
 
#42
#42
Do you think we should kill all Muslims?

I think this is a valid question for gs. His arguement seems to be that Islam is immutable. It will not change. If it's stated purpose is as he says(which is to ultimately control the world), then how could we ever hope to live in peace? They will always attack and harrass us in the name of their religion. If that's the case, then it seems it's either us or them.


FTR, these are not my feelings, I'm just trying to follow gs's arguement to the end. I do however believe in what I posted before about Arab nations policing the radicals. If they refuse to do that, we need to cut ties until such a time as they are willing to take that responsibility.
 
#43
#43
1,400 Years of Islamic Aggression: An Analysis

"During the Crusades, East and West first met." This is just totally in error, as any person with the slightest knowledge of history well knows. East and West had been fighting for at least 1,500 years before the first Crusade.

To give just a few examples -- the Persians invaded Europe in an attempt to conquer the Greeks in the fifth century B.C. The Greek, Alexander the Great, attempted to conquer all of Asia, as far as India, in the fourth century B.C. Both the Persians of the east and the Greeks of the west set up colonial empires founded upon bloody military conquest. The Romans established by bloody military conquest colonies in Mesopotamia, northwestern Arabia, and Assyria in the second century A.D.

A different type of bloody conquest occurred through the movement of whole tribal groups between the east and the west. Again, just to name a few, the Huns, the Goths, and the Avars came from as far away as western Asia, central Asia, and China respectively in the fifth through the seventh centuries A.D.

Indeed, the Avars from northern China and Mongolia were besieging Constantinople in 626 A.D., at the very moment Mohammed was a brigand in Arabia. Indeed, the Avars, by this siege, were one of the forces that weakened the Byzantines (there were many other, perhaps more important, forces) to the extent that most of the Byzantine mid-eastern empire fell relatively easily to the Muslims.

But let's give the writer the benefit of the doubt and say that the author meant that "During the Crusades, Islam and Christianity first met." This, of course, is also totally false.

Let us review the Muslim conquest. In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain. Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars," putting the lie to another statement in the U.S. News article that proclaimed the Crusades "The First Holy War," as if the Christians had invented the concept of a holy war. After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.

You will note the string of adjectives and may have some objection to my using them. They are used because they are the absolute truth. Anyone denying them is a victim of PC thinking, ignorant of history, or lying to protect Islam. Let us take each word separately before we proceed further in our true history of the relationship between the Christian west and the Islamic east.

Imperialistic

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Colonialist

The Muslim goal was to have a central government, first at Damascus, and then at Baghdad -- later at Cairo, Istanbul, or other imperial centers. The local governors, judges, and other rulers were appointed by the central imperial authorities for far off colonies. Islamic law was introduced as the senior law, whether or not wanted by the local people. Arabic was introduced as the rulers' language, and the local language frequently disappeared. Two classes of residents were established. The native residents paid a tax that their colonialist rulers did not have to pay.

Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:


Christians and Jews could not bear arms -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews could not ride horses -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to get permission to build -- Muslims did not;
Christians and Jews had to pay certain taxes which Muslims did not;
Christians could not proselytize -- Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes; and
Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law.
In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs. This is the classic definition of colonialist -- "a group of people who settle in a distant territory from the state having jurisdiction or control over it and who remain under the political jurisdiction of their native land."

We will talk about "bloody" as we proceed. Because the U.S. News article related only to the Christian west against the Muslim east, except in this paragraph I will not describe the almost 1,500 years of Muslim imperialistic, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war to the east of Arabia in Iraq, Persia, and much further eastward, which continues to this day.

In any event, because it was the closest geographically, Palestine was the first Western non-Arab area invaded in the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others. At the time, Palestine was under the rule of the so-called Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from Istanbul by Greek speaking people, and was Eastern Orthodox Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox rule was despotic and the Eastern Roman Empire was in serious decline. The Eastern Orthodox rulers were despots, and in Palestine had subjugated the large population of local Jews and Monophysite Christians. Because the Orthodox were imperialist, colonialist, and bloody, and majored in religious persecution to boot, the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine, and then Egypt, was made easier. Because of Orthodox weakness and the relative speed of the conquest of Palestine and Israel, I have often seen this Muslim, imperialist, colonialist bloody conquest described by Muslim and PC writers as "peaceful" or "bloodless." This statement is simply not true.

The Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part -- hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be "civilized." It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs.

The Muslim conquest of (Christian) North Africa went relatively easily until the native peoples of North Africa (most importantly the Berbers) were encountered west of Egypt. The North African people fought so strongly against the Muslims that the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest in the west was brought to an almost complete stop between Tripoli and Carthage for more than a quarter century. The Muslims broke through in a series of bloody battles followed by bloody (revenge) massacres of the Muslim's (largely Christian) opponents. This Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest continued through North Africa and through what is now Spain, Portugal, and southern France, until they were stopped at the battle of Poiters (hardly bloodless) in the middle of France.

I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.

But let us return to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem

The U.S. News article states that after Saladin conquered Jerusalem, "the victorious Saladin forbade acts of vengeance. There were no more deaths, no violence." True, as far as it goes. The article goes on to say, "most Muslims [will] tell you about Saladin and his generosity in the face of Christian aggression and hatred." Thus, the PC people and the Muslims ignore 450 years of prior Muslim aggression and approach the Crusades as being Christian or Western aggression against Islam, beginning out of the blue, without any prior history. Let us go back to the Muslim colonialist occupation of Jerusalem.

When we left our truthful history of Jerusalem, the Muslims, headquartered in Arabia, had just captured Jerusalem. For approximately 100 years, chiefly under the Umayyads, Jerusalem prospered under Muslim rule. Under the succeeding Abbasids, Jerusalem began to decline -- beginning at approximately 725 A.D. The occasion, among other things, was the decline of the central Muslim government, the breaking away from Arabia of far-flung provinces, the growth of warlike revolutionary groups, the growth of extremist Muslim sects, and, perhaps most important, the decision (relatively new) that Muslims had an obligation to convert all Christians and Jews (and "other pagans") to Islam. Thereafter, the true colonial nature of Jerusalem became more apparent. The Abbasids drained wealth from Jerusalem to Baghdad for the benefit of the caliphs, and Jerusalem declined economically. The language of the government became Arabic, and forcible conversion to Islam became the Muslim policy.

In approximately 750, the Caliph destroyed the walls of Jerusalem, leaving it defenseless (they were later rebuilt, in time to defend against the Crusaders). The history of the following three hundred years is too complex and too tangled to describe in a single paragraph. Jerusalem and its Christian and Jewish majority suffered greatly during alternating periods of peace and war. Among the happenings were repeated Muslim destruction of the countryside of Israel (970-983, and 1024-1077) of Jerusalem; the wholesale destruction by the Muslims of Christian churches -- sometimes at the direct order of the Caliph, as in 1003, and sometimes by Muslim mobs; the total destruction of Jerusalem by the Caliph of Cairo in the early 1020s; building small mosques on the top of Christian churches; enforcing the Muslim laws limiting the height of Christian churches; attacking and robbing Christian pilgrims from Europe; attacking Christian processions in the streets of Jerusalem; etc.

Why the change after nearly 100 years of mostly peaceful Muslim rule? From what I read, there is a general view among the historians that the caliphs had begun to add a religious importance to their conquests, setting conversion to Islam as an important priority; their later caliphs had no first-hand remembrance of Mohammed; the vast distances of the empire led to independent rulers being established in Spain, North Africa, Cairo, Asia Minor, etc.; and the instability of the caliphates and resulting civil wars.

The point about conversion to Islam I find particularly interesting. Many historians believe that the first one hundred years of Muslim conquest were imperialist and colonialist only with little significant forced conversion content. With respect to Jerusalem, there was a particular problem in the fact that generally the Christians and their churches (and to a lesser degree, the Jews) were significantly wealthier than the Muslims. This was largely because beginning in the early 800s with Charlemaigne, Europe adopted a sort of prototype "foreign aid" program for the churches located at the holy places in Jerusalem, where, to the embarrassment of the Muslims, Christian churches and monasteries outshone their Muslim rivals. Many of these churches and monasteries were run by western religious orders reporting directly to Rome under western leaders appointed by Rome (more were subject to Constantinople). Literally thousands of European Christian pilgrims made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem from such places as Germany, France, and Hungary (particularly in the years 1000, 1033, 1064, and 1099). Finally, Muslim rulers and European rulers frequently sought to enter into treaties of support with each other. As a result, Christian churches became the target of Muslims when enemies of those with whom there were European ties were victorious in a civil war. From time to time, Christian churches were rebuilt with Muslim funds when pro-western rulers came to power.

So much for the PC, U.S. News, Muslim outright lie that begins with the statement, "During the Crusades, East and West first met," and that later in the article called the Crusades, "the first major clash between Islam and Western Christendom." What about the long, prior conquest by Islam of Spain and Portugal? What about the battle of Portiers?

The following is just an aside, which I cannot prove, but I have noticed that PC and Muslim statements frequently cut off history when it is not in their favor. Thus, the article gives credence to the widespread belief in Islam that east-west history began with the Crusades. See also as an example of this tendency to begin history where it is convenient, today's Muslim description of the current Israeli occupation of the West Bank without mentioning the fact that the current occupation was caused by the widespread cold-blooded murder of Israeli civilians by Muslims.

But let us move on to the Crusades themselves.

The Crusades

First, a word about my personal view of the Crusades. I believe that the murderous and pillaging acts of the Crusaders when they entered Jerusalem were barbaric, unchristian, and evil. This is particularly so as those barbaric, unchristian, and evil acts were carried on in the name of a religion of peace, love, and forgiveness. I believe that the vast bulk of thinking Christians agree with me. I cite as evidence the large numbers of Christians who have recently taken long pilgrimages in the footsteps of the Crusaders, repenting for the Crusader's acts, seeking for forgiveness, and giving penance for the Crusader's barbaric, unchristian, and evil acts.

A question occurs to me here. How many Muslim groups have taken long pilgrimages in the footsteps of the Muslim conquest repenting, seeking for forgiveness, and giving penance for the Muslims imperialist, colonialist, and bloody conquest of Palestine, Egypt, Syria, North Africa, and Spain? This is particularly important as the U.S. News article claims, "For [Muslims] imperialism is a dirty word" Where is Muslim repentance for its imperialism, geographically the largest in all of history, which permits Muslims to call Western imperialism a dirty word?

Let us rewrite the beginning of the U.S. News article as follows: "In 1095, after suffering from the murderous invasions of Muslim conquerors who killed tens of thousands of Christians through four-and-one-half centuries of Muslim imperialist, colonialist conquest, made slaves and eunuchs of Christians for the pleasure of the caliphs, burned down or sacked the holiest churches in Christendom, robbed and killed thousands of Christians on holy pilgrimage, brutally sacked and pillaged Jerusalem, and pillaged the countryside of Israel, western Europe, under the leadership of the Pope, decided to free the people of the Holy Land from their brutal masters and reclaim Christianity's holiest places for free Christian worship."

Now, I fully realize that the previous paragraph is one-sided, that the six centuries of Muslim colonial, imperialist occupation were more complex than are shown in the previous paragraphs, and that the Christians were not always blameless, little babes. However, the previous paragraph has the benefit of not being an outright lie, which is more than I can say for the U.S. News article.

To beat the dog one more time, you may have noted that I stated above that Muslim imperialism has continued until the present. Muslim imperialism has continued without any let-up from ten years before Mohammed's death until today.

Consider the Ottoman invasion of Christian Eastern Europe in which the Ottoman Empire invaded the west and conquered and colonized Greece, all of the Balkans, Romania, Bessarabia, and Hungary, and was stopped only at the outskirts of Vienna in 1529. Consider also the Muhgal conquest of Northern India in the early 1600s. But today? Of course! In the 20th century alone:

1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.

2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.

3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.

4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated into Indonesia.

5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.

6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.

7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.

8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians.

9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.

10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.

11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.

12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.

13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.

14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.

Yes, I know that the reverse has been true. For example, Christian Serbia entered and massacred Bosnian Muslims. The western response was instructive. The west sent troops to protect the Muslims. Serbia gave up its leader to be tried for the crime by an international panel. Will Indonesia do the same with respect to Timor? Or Sudan with respect to southern Sudan?

Question: What is the title of the shortest book in the world? Answer: "The list of Muslim nations who have risked the lives of their soldiers to protect (as with the U.S. protection of Muslims in Kuwait) Christian or Jewish citizens from Muslim imperialism."

Yes, I also know that in the 20th century the west fought two of the bloodiest wars in history. But in the past more than 55 years, the west has developed methods that have led to peace among the west, and all but totally ended western imperialism and colonialism. With former colonies having a large majority in the UN, and the example of the west before it, Islam has continued its imperialist, colonial, bloody wars unabated.

One final point. Muslims base their claim to the city of Jerusalem upon the belief that Jerusalem has been a Muslim city for centuries. It may be that Muslims were never a majority in Jerusalem. We cannot prove this for all time periods, but we know that Muslims were a minority in the first several centuries after the Muslim imperialist conquest and during the century of Christian occupation during the Crusades. And we know that in the Middle Ages, Jerusalem was not considered important to the Muslims, but it was to the Christians and Jews. The Muslims made cities other than Jerusalem the capital of their Palestinian colony. Many Caliphs never even visited Jerusalem. Therefore, there was a steady stream of Jewish and Christian (but not Muslim) immigrants into Jerusalem throughout the Middle Ages, including a major immigration of Karaite Jews in the late eighth and early ninth centuries, and a steady stream of Armenians for hundreds of years, until there were so many Armenians that an Armenian Quarter was established in Jerusalem. Finally, we know that for at least more than the last 160 years, Muslims were a clear minority in Jerusalem. The Muslim Ottomans, and then the British and Israelis, kept careful census record showing the following percentages of Muslim population in Jerusalem:

1844 -- 33%

1896 -- 19%

1910 -- 13%

1922 -- 22%

1931 -- 22%

1948 -- 24%

1967 -- 21%

1972 -- 23%

1992 -- 25%

Learn more at CBN.com's Understanding Islam section


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard C. Csaplar, Jr., is a member of the Board of Trustees of Regent University and an attorney with Day, Berry, and Howard of Boston, Massachusetts, where he specializes in financial law.



Since you want to get Biblical, what are your thoughts on this quote as it pertains to Judaism?

Who in your opinion is the Synagogue of Satan today? Notice it isn't the "Mosque of Satan."

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9).

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Revelation 3:9).
 
#44
#44
I think this is a valid question for gs. His arguement seems to be that Islam is immutable. It will not change. If it's stated purpose is as he says(which is to ultimately control the world), then how could we ever hope to live in peace? They will always attack and harrass us in the name of their religion. If that's the case, then it seems it's either us or them.


FTR, these are not my feelings, I'm just trying to follow gs's arguement to the end. I do however believe in what I posted before about Arab nations policing the radicals. If they refuse to do that, we need to cut ties until such a time as they are willing to take that responsibility.



What he doesn't realize is you can also make a case that Judaism in the form of Zionism is also hell-bent on world domination. Both of those religions deserve each other and are to blame for every problem in the Middle East today...BOTH of them.
 
#45
#45
Since you want to get Biblical, what are your thoughts on this quote as it pertains to Judaism?

Who in your opinion is the Synagogue of Satan today? Notice it isn't the "Mosque of Satan."

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9).

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Revelation 3:9).

I don't read anything in my post you quoted that seem Biblical but since you want to quote the Bible, how about Mt; 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." (the words of Jesus)

This description fits Abu al-Qasim Muhammad Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim to a T.

Also Mt; 24:24 and Mk; 22:22.

A truthful biography of his illiterate life demonstrates that completely.








I think this is a valid question for gs. His arguement seems to be that Islam is immutable. It will not change. If it's stated purpose is as he says(which is to ultimately control the world), then how could we ever hope to live in peace? They will always attack and harrass us in the name of their religion. If that's the case, then it seems it's either us or them.


FTR, these are not my feelings, I'm just trying to follow gs's arguement to the end. I do however believe in what I posted before about Arab nations policing the radicals. If they refuse to do that, we need to cut ties until such a time as they are willing to take that responsibility.

Let's say the bottom line is 'it's either us or them,' because of the way you interpret what I say.

Now what is your interpretaion of reality?

Mubarak policed the radicals and you see what that got him.

Quadafi also forbade political speech in the mosques of Libya, now where is Moamar?






So how's everyone celebrating Ramadan?

HAPPY RAMADAN!!

Ramadan Ding-Dong | FrontPage Magazine

As is customary, President Obama and wife Michelle released their annual Ramadan greetings last Friday. Also customary for Obama, it was full of platitudes about Islam’s supposedly invaluable contribution to American culture, and devoid of any acknowledgement of the dark reality of the Arab Spring that he helped facilitate.

The statement began:

Michelle and I extend our warmest wishes to Muslim Americans and Muslims around the world at the start of Ramadan. For Muslims, Ramadan is a time of fasting, prayer, and reflection; a time of joy and celebration. It’s a time to cherish family, friends, and neighbors, and to help those in need.

In ironic response, CNN posted this headline two days later: “Iraq Bombs Kill 25 People as Muslims Celebrate Ramadan.” Similar headlines followed: “Ramadan Fails to Curtail Syrian Violence.” “Muslims Begin Ramadan Fast; Bombs Hit Thai South.” “7 Shot Dead in Karachi on First Day of Ramadan.” So much for reflection, joy, and celebration.

Even if many Muslims around the world weren’t respectful of Ramadan, at least American officials in Guantanamo were. In deference to the Muslims who are vacationing – sorry, I mean incarcerated – there, they graciously postponed any court hearings to allow the murderous 9/11 plotters their time of contemplation and joy.
-------------------------

Not according to a group by the name of “Qaedat al-Jihad,” a branch of al Qaeda that has been described as one of the “affiliates of the Global Jihad movement.” This is their take on Ramadan, delivered in their statement claiming responsibility for last Wednesday’s terror attack against Israeli tourists in Bulgaria that killed seven and wounded dozens more:

The month of Ramadan is a month of holy war and death for Allah. It is a month for fighting the enemies of Allah and God’s messenger, the Jews and their American facilitators… The holy war is not confined to a particular arena and we shall fight the Jews and the Americans until they leave the land of Islam.

So much for our common humanity, “shared by all great faiths.” Holy war? That’s odd – Western academics and Muslim Brotherhood front groups here in America keep insisting that jihad is about “inner striving” and has nothing to do with holy war.
------------------

In any case, Obama continued his Ramadan statement:

This year, Ramadan holds special meaning for those citizens in the Middle East and North Africa who are courageously achieving democracy and self-determination and for those who are still struggling to achieve their universal rights.

He’s referring off course to the Arab Spring, that glorious flowering of democratic freedom which has led to Islamic fundamentalists toppling regimes in Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere, threatening to create new Irans.
---------------------

Obama again:

The United States continues to stand with those who seek the chance to decide their own destiny, to live free from fear and violence, and to practice their faith freely.

Really? This hollow claim will come as something of a bitter surprise to the Iranian Green Revolutionaries he ignored three summers ago, and to dwindling Christian communities all across the Middle East who are now being targeted in the genocidal wake of the Islamist Winter he praises so lavishly.
--------------------

Also in his Ramadan greeting, Obama noted that

Here in the United States, Ramadan reminds us that Islam is part of the fabric of our Nation, and that—from public service to business, from healthcare and science to the arts—Muslim Americans help strengthen our country and enrich our lives.

There may indeed be individual Muslim-Americans who are serving this country in those arenas, but how exactly is Islam “part of the fabric of our nation”?
 
#46
#46
gs, I'm not sure what arguement you are pursuing. Are you or are you not saying Islam can never exist peacefully in a world where non-believers exist? If you are, then isn't every Muslim a perceived threat? If they are, then what is the ultimate solution?
 
#47
#47
gs, I'm not sure what arguement you are pursuing. Are you or are you not saying Islam can never exist peacefully in a world where non-believers exist? If you are, then isn't every Muslim a perceived threat? If they are, then what is the ultimate solution?

Gee what is this, an inquisition?

How about telling me what you think once in a while?

To answer your question ,who knows what the ultimate solution is other than a significant portion of muslims renouncing islam.

We could start by confronting islamic leaders on human rights violations and the double standard they keep advancing.

Number one on the agenda is to rid ourselves of the corrupt, treasonous administration now in office.
 
#48
#48
Gee what is this, an inquisition?

How about telling me what you think once in a while?

To answer your question ,who knows what the ultimate solution is other than a significant portion of muslims renouncing islam.

We could start by confronting islamic leaders on human rights violations and the double standard they keep advancing.

Number one on the agenda is to rid ourselves of the corrupt, treasonous administration now in office.

I've shared my thoughts, you just tend to disagree with me. I've tried to explain my rationale, but you are dismissive and one sided in how you see things.

You post an arguement of your belief, so I assume you are up to debating it. Am I incorrect in that assumption? That would defeat the purpose of this forum.

If Muslims are forced to renounce their faith, then shouldn't other religions renounce their faiths as well? It seems religion is the great divider. That I am aware of, no religion really mixes well with another. Would you disagree?

If we call out Islamic leaders on human rights violations, then America should be willing to face the same scrutiny. I'm not saying we shouldn't call them out, but, as much as I wish differently, our country has committed human rights violations as well. It's hard to be the moral police when you yourself are not innocent.

I believe all politicians are corrupt and self-serving. As long as elected officials place party above country, we will always have a "corrupt, treasonous administration".
 
#49
#49
How is it that I mischaracterize islam?

Islam divides the world into two spheres;

1. The house of peace = where islam dominates.

2. The house of war = any place where islam doesn't dominate.

3. All moslems are to make jihad against the house of war in some way until it becomes within the house of peace.

4. Islam seeks to rule all the world and both peaceful and violent means are sanctioned.

BTW, you can bring up what you consider errors of judgement by Christians but if you campare the historical violence of both Christianity and islam, you will find there is no comparison.

In the 20th century alone at least ten million people were slaughtered by the followers of muhammed.

The 21st century looks to be even worse if present trends continue.

Do you believe the Middle East Muslims have a skewed perception of reality when it come to America, our foreign policies, our society, and our military?
 
#50
#50
I've shared my thoughts, you just tend to disagree with me. I've tried to explain my rationale, but you are dismissive and one sided in how you see things.

You post an arguement of your belief, so I assume you are up to debating it. Am I incorrect in that assumption? That would defeat the purpose of this forum.

If Muslims are forced to renounce their faith, then shouldn't other religions renounce their faiths as well? It seems religion is the great divider. That I am aware of, no religion really mixes well with another. Would you disagree?

If we call out Islamic leaders on human rights violations, then America should be willing to face the same scrutiny. I'm not saying we shouldn't call them out, but, as much as I wish differently, our country has committed human rights violations as well. It's hard to be the moral police when you yourself are not innocent.

I believe all politicians are corrupt and self-serving. As long as elected officials place party above country, we will always have a "corrupt, treasonous administration".


If we still had the PM option I would give you my best intelligence and what I really think.

One thing I would like to point out is that your rationale leads to dhimmitude, whether you realize it or not.

The purpose of this thread is to try to put islam in hitroical context, if we can do that then we perhaps can move on to the next discussion, if not, then we seem to be stuck here.








Do you believe the Middle East Muslims have a skewed perception of reality when it come to America, our foreign policies, our society, and our military?

Yes and no.
 

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