Islam, is it a religion of peace or war?

[0nelilreb]

I'm trying to relate your question in terms that are analogous to moral interactions between persons since many assert that God (or his character) is the moral standard. If God tells me to kill my son I should do it, right? But if some other agent in a position of power over me tells me to do the same thing would you consider that to be moral? I don't think many people would. So why is it okay for God to do it and not for someone else? Because might makes right?

You are equating mans moral standard to gods . I would hope that we could both agree that there’s no comparison , man is by nature sinful. ( of the flesh ) . I think I understand what you are saying but the level of standards for comparison is too far apart .

 

[Wafflestomper]

You are equating mans moral standard to gods . I would hope that we could both agree that there’s no comparison , man is by nature sinful. ( of the flesh ) . I think I understand what you are saying but the level of standards for comparison is too far apart .

My understanding by listening to many contemporary apologists and theologians is that God's character is the moral standard--i.e., what we should aspire to. I suspect this is a response to criticisms related to the Euthyphro dilemma. Regardless, if that's what someone believes then they need to explain how God's character can allow him to do things that we would consider immoral if one person did them to another. That, or we need to bite the bullet and accept that doing those things is not immoral after all. This ties back to my point about Islamists perhaps not being immoral if their religion is the correct one. I'm not saying I agree with any of this, of course.

 

[0nelilreb]

My understanding by listening to many contemporary apologists and theologians is that God's character is the moral standard--i.e., what we should aspire to. I suspect this is a response to criticisms related to the Euthyphro dilemma. Regardless, if that's what someone believes then they need to explain how God's character can allow him to do things that we would consider immoral if one person did them to another. That, or we need to bite the bullet and accept that doing those things is not immoral after all. This ties back to my point about Islamists perhaps not being immoral if their religion is the correct one. I'm not saying I agree with any of this, of course.

Free will to choose to do things with a literal guide telling us about the consequences of our actions . We talk about the terrible things we see happen and attribute it to god allowing it , we don’t attribute it to mans actions and our ability to choose . There’s also a purpose for everything ( IMO ) . Thou shat not kill , but god wiped out everyone except Noah and his family , he had a purpose . That was our one do over . ( IMO ) most people don’t have to be told if something is immoral, you know it in your heart and mind . Choosing to go through with the act is the free will part .

 

[VolFaninFla]

I know that Christians also say that God's character is the moral standard and that it is absolute, i.e., doesn't change. So the same God who nearly had Abraham murder his kid for the lulz is the God of love in the NT.

That is something that has always bothered this ex altar boy. Can you imagine what it felt like from Isaac’s perspective?
Kid must have been horribly traumatized and slept with one eye 👁 open for the rest of his life.

 

[UT-Rex]

I'm trying to relate your question in terms that are analogous to moral interactions between persons since many assert that God (or his character) is the moral standard. If God tells me to kill my son I should do it, right? But if some other agent in a position of power over me tells me to do the same thing would you consider that to be moral? I don't think many people would. So why is it okay for God to do it and not for someone else? Because might makes right?

Re: So why is it okay for God to do it

He was testing Abraham, and He has ALL AUTHORITY to do such.

19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and in a sense, he did receive Isaac back from death.


In this age,

a. God doesn't need to "test" you (or Judaism or Islam) in that regard, any longer
b. God already has sent His one and only son, as a sacrifice for mankind's sins ("He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life").

New American Standard Bible
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

C. IF / IF / IF you want to be like Abraham, then you will concede through faith to follow what God has told you.


New American Standard Bible
Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

New American Standard Bible
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

New American Standard Bible
"... I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

New American Standard Bible
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

 

[Wafflestomper]

Re: So why is it okay for God to do it

He was testing Abraham, and He has ALL AUTHORITY to do such.

Having the authority to perform an action doesn't make said action either prudent or moral. Else any action conceivable would be A-Okay since God presumably has the authority to do it.

 

[UT-Rex]

Having the authority to perform an action doesn't make said action either prudent or moral. Else any action conceivable would be A-Okay since God presumably has the authority to do it.

Do you have such authority, to accomplish such a thing as this --

3The LORD is a warrior,
the LORD is His name.
4Pharaoh’s chariots and army
He has cast into the sea;
the finest of his officers
are drowned in the Red Sea.a
5The depths have covered them;
they sank there like a stone.

God gave Isaac to Abraham, in the first place -- He had to authority to give him a son, and the authority to take him from Abraham.

13And the LORD asked Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Can I really bear a child when I am old?’ 14Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you—in about a year—and Sarah will have a son.”c

Everthing, leads to the Cross.

Like I said: God has told you / the world to listen to His Son, Jesus -- i.e. Jesus has ALL authority << this is something that Islam AND Judaism fail to recognize.

New American Standard Bible
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

I'm trying to relate your question in terms that are analogous to moral interactions between persons since many assert that God (or his character) is the moral standard. If God tells me to kill my son I should do it, right? But if some other agent in a position of power over me tells me to do the same thing would you consider that to be moral? I don't think many people would. So why is it okay for God to do it and not for someone else? Because might makes right?

 

[UT-Rex]

I'm trying to relate your question in terms that are analogous to moral interactions between persons since many assert that God (or his character) is the moral standard. If God tells me to kill my son I should do it, right? But if some other agent in a position of power over me tells me to do the same thing would you consider that to be moral? I don't think many people would. So why is it okay for God to do it and not for someone else? Because might makes right?

And I'm trying to relate to you, that as you're acknowledging certain, real and literal events of the Bible, you can see the connection of Abraham/Isaac (on the mountaintop) to that of Jesus (indeed crucified, on the Cross at Calvary) << by your recognizing Abraham, you're a step closer to recognizing the Love of God (which marcus told you about).

Know, then, for sure, that just as Abraham took Isaac upon that mountain top, that God led Jesus to Calvary -- both events are REAL -- that is, Abraham did withhold the knife, AND, They DID KILL HIM (Jesus), at Calvary (AND, this was the Will of God << JUST AS it was the will of God to test Abraham).

To you, Judaism and Islam -- father Abraham did indeed take his son Isaac to the mountain ; and God did indeed send His son to die on the Cross (to save us from our sins).

All men are called to repent.

New American Standard Bible
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

John 19
10So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?”
11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above."

 

[Wafflestomper]

And I'm trying to relate to you, that as you're acknowledging certain, real and literal events of the Bible, you can see the connection of Abraham/Isaac (on the mountaintop) to that of Jesus (indeed crucified, on the Cross at Calvary) << by your recognizing Abraham, you're a step closer to recognizing the Love of God (which marcus told you about).

Know, then, for sure, that just as Abraham took Isaac upon that mountain top, that God led Jesus to Calvary -- both events are REAL -- that is, Abraham did withhold the knife, AND, They DID KILL HIM (Jesus), at Calvary (AND, this was the Will of God << JUST AS it was the will of God to test Abraham).

To you, Judaism and Islam -- father Abraham did indeed take his son Isaac to the mountain ; and God did indeed send His son to die on the Cross (to save us from our sins).

All men are called to repent.

New American Standard Bible
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

John 19
10So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?”
11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above."

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood my point. I'm not arguing whether these events actually happened.

 

[Roustabout]

Having the authority to perform an action doesn't make said action either prudent or moral. Else any action conceivable would be A-Okay since God presumably has the authority to do it.

And??

 

[Wafflestomper]

And??

And nothing. The point is contained in the first sentence.

 

[Roustabout]

I’m so relieved that this would never happen in a free country and that Islam is a religion of peace.

Girl who sparked online hate campaign ending in French teacher’s beheading 'never attended class’

 

[VolFaninFla]

Kenyan police believe man who shot 2 dead was an extremist
Murderer, then suicide by mob of pissed off Kenyans.

 

[VolnJC]

I have to admit I admire old Qaddafi trying to save some Western Whore souls lol