Israel vs Palestinians

#23,176
#23,176
So this may be one of the lowest civilian casualty ratios in an urban environment, but yet this is a “genocide” according to many in here?

Interesting…

www.newsweek.com

Israel Has Created a New Standard for Urban Warfare. No One Will Admit It

All available evidence shows that Israel has followed the laws of war, legal obligations, best practices in civilian harm mitigation and still found a way to reduce civilian casualties.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
 
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#23,177
#23,177
Vol8188 said:
So this may be one of the lowest civilian casualty ratios in an urban environment, but yet this is a “genocide” according to many in here?

Interesting…

www.newsweek.com

Israel Has Created a New Standard for Urban Warfare. No One Will Admit It

All available evidence shows that Israel has followed the laws of war, legal obligations, best practices in civilian harm mitigation and still found a way to reduce civilian casualties.
www.newsweek.com www.newsweek.com
Click to expand...
Israel likely working close to a 1:2 ratio?

10,000 Hamas killed
20,000 Citizens killed
 
#23,180
#23,180
whodeycin85 said:
For those against Israel I have a hypothetical for you to see where your head is...

You and your neighbors are fighting over a fence line, have been for years...it's get to the point where it coming to blows...your neighbor and his wife and kids are out there yelling in support of their husband and father...your wife and kid are in the house watching TV...the neighbor bypasses you and attacks your wife and child. His issue is with you but he attacks your wife and child..is that acceptable??
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I understand where you are going but Israeli policy toward Palestinians is also an attack.

There are no winners in this conflict and there is no moral high ground to base an argument like this on.
 
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#23,181
#23,181
KB5252 said:
I understand where you are going but Israeli policy toward Palestinians is also an attack.

There are no winners in this conflict and there is no moral high ground to base an argument like this on.
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I agree there is no moral high ground...the point was if Hamas and Palestine were just against Isreals the government then they should have attack Isreal the government..instead the choose to attack the innocent Jews..it's not an assault against a oppressive government it's to eliminate a race of people
 
#23,183
#23,183
whodeycin85 said:
I agree there is no moral high ground...the point was if Hamas and Palestine were just against Isreals the government then they should have attack Isreal the government..instead the choose to attack the innocent Jews..it's not an assault against a oppressive government it's to eliminate a race of people
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I don't disagree, I'm just short of positive Hamas would have killed as many Israeli's as possible that day but their means were limited.

My point is Israel has instituted policies which caused great suffering of the Palestinian people. Some of that is directly related to actions Hamas and others have taken in terror attacks etc.

At this point it's just a self fulfilling cycle. Palestinians want to drive Israeli's into the sea and Israel appears to have finally decided they cannot coexist as they currently are and are either looking to totally eradicate Hamas or something worse.
 
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#23,184
#23,184
Vol8188 said:
My question for the pro Palestine crowd:

We all seem to agree on a few basic things.

1. Hamas is evil
2. Hamas’ only chance is to gain international support by increasing civilian casualties
3. Hamas openly attempts to increase civilian casualties (such as preventing civilians from fleeing)
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We all should agree on #1.

Then you get goofy with #2. Hamas isn't using civilian deaths as a tactic. The civilian deaths are a result of the IDF openly aware civilians are crowded in these areas, yet still drop bombs on them at the hope of killing a few Hamas.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about on #3.

So only #1 is what we all seem to agree on. The other 2 are just distortions/fabrications.

Vol8188 said:
If we agree to those things, yet you continue to blame Israel for the civilians, are you intentionally supporting Hamas? Or am I wrong on one of the 3 statements listed above?

What exactly am I missing here?
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You are missing that the Israelis had every right to go after the Hamas criminals responsible for October 7th. But you don't use that event to engage in a genocide or ethnic cleansing.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
 
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#23,185
#23,185
Rasputin_Vol said:
We all should agree on #1.

Then you get goofy with #2. Hamas isn't using civilian deaths as a tactic. The civilian deaths are a result of the IDF openly aware civilians are crowded in these areas, yet still drop bombs on them at the hope of killing a few Hamas.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about on #3.

So only #1 is what we all seem to agree on. The other 2 are just distortions/fabrications.


You are missing that the Israelis had every right to go after the Hamas criminals responsible for October 7th. But you don't use that event to engage in a genocide or ethnic cleansing.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
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Why do you think Hamas is killing it's own civilians then if not to add to the death toll for public support?
 
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#23,186
#23,186
Rasputin_Vol said:
We all should agree on #1.

Then you get goofy with #2. Hamas isn't using civilian deaths as a tactic. The civilian deaths are a result of the IDF openly aware civilians are crowded in these areas, yet still drop bombs on them at the hope of killing a few Hamas.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about on #3.

So only #1 is what we all seem to agree on. The other 2 are just distortions/fabrications.


You are missing that the Israelis had every right to go after the Hamas criminals responsible for October 7th. But you don't use that event to engage in a genocide or ethnic cleansing.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
Click to expand...
#2 Has been the bread and butter for Hamas and some of the governments prior for decades. Hamas has even openly used rhetoric that says as much for public consumption.

#3 Hamas has openly prevented Palestinians from leaving areas under threat of death. They have blocked civilian traffic to act as cover for them. This is even admitted in intercepted communications.

Israel is not without blame here, don't get me wrong. But Hamas doesn't appear to value Palestinians much more than Israel does.
 
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#23,187
#23,187
Rasputin_Vol said:
We all should agree on #1.

Then you get goofy with #2. Hamas isn't using civilian deaths as a tactic. The civilian deaths are a result of the IDF openly aware civilians are crowded in these areas, yet still drop bombs on them at the hope of killing a few Hamas.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about on #3.

So only #1 is what we all seem to agree on. The other 2 are just distortions/fabrications.


You are missing that the Israelis had every right to go after the Hamas criminals responsible for October 7th. But you don't use that event to engage in a genocide or ethnic cleansing.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
Click to expand...

So you’re denying that Hamas blocked roads out of Gaza City for citizens to leave?

There is no genocide nor ethnic cleansing. Between the two, Hamas and the IDF, the IDF has done far more to save civilians in Gaza than Hamas has done for its own civilians.

You’re right, for anyone looking at this logically it’s not difficult to understand. For you on the other hand…
 
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#23,188
#23,188
KB5252 said:
#2 Has been the bread and butter for Hamas and some of the governments prior for decades. Hamas has even openly used rhetoric that says as much for public consumption.

#3 Hamas has openly prevented Palestinians from leaving areas under threat of death. They have blocked civilian traffic to act as cover for them. This is even admitted in intercepted communications.

Israel is not without blame here, don't get me wrong. But Hamas doesn't appear to value Palestinians much more than Israel does.
Click to expand...

My only correction is your last sentence.

The IDF seems to value Palestinian lives more so than Hamas does
 
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#23,192
#23,192
KB5252 said:
I wouldn't go that far
Click to expand...

Hamas blocks civilians from leaving
IDF provides protected corridors for civilian travel

IDF overseas shipments of aid to Gazans
Hamas steals the aid from Gazans

IDF wants civilians out of war zones
Hamas wants to insulate themselves with civilians

I think it’s hard to argue against the idea of the IDF caring more for Gazan civilians than Hamas.

Are you aware of any efforts by Hamas to evacuate Gaza city?
 
#23,193
#23,193
Vol8188 said:
Hamas blocks civilians from leaving
IDF provides protected corridors for civilian travel

IDF overseas shipments of aid to Gazans
Hamas steals the aid from Gazans

IDF wants civilians out of war zones
Hamas wants to insulate themselves with civilians

I think it’s hard to argue against the idea of the IDF caring more for Gazan civilians than Hamas.

Are you aware of any efforts by Hamas to evacuate Gaza city?
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I think the IDF is trying hard to avoid breaking international law with those moves as much as anything else to skirt it. I mean listen to the hardliner government reps own words. Their rhetoric is basically drive the Palestinians into the sea. We criticize the Palestinians when they say it, shouldn't give the Israeli government a pass when they do.
 
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#23,194
#23,194
KB5252 said:
I think the IDF is trying hard to avoid breaking international law with those moves as much as anything else to skirt it. I mean listen to the hardliner government reps own words. Their rhetoric is basically drive the Palestinians into the sea. We criticize the Palestinians when they say it, shouldn't give the Israeli government a pass when they do.
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No one cares about international law. And you’d have to show me the specific comments you’re talking about

Either way, if your argument is “Israel only cares about civilians because of international law” (something no one actually cares about), that would still be far more than Hamas cares.

For Hamas civilian casualties are their only hope
 
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#23,198
#23,198
Rasputin_Vol said:
We all should agree on #1.

Then you get goofy with #2. Hamas isn't using civilian deaths as a tactic. The civilian deaths are a result of the IDF openly aware civilians are crowded in these areas, yet still drop bombs on them at the hope of killing a few Hamas.

I have no idea WTF you are talking about on #3.

So only #1 is what we all seem to agree on. The other 2 are just distortions/fabrications.


You are missing that the Israelis had every right to go after the Hamas criminals responsible for October 7th. But you don't use that event to engage in a genocide or ethnic cleansing.

This really isn't that difficult to understand.
Click to expand...
Those 3 points weren't hard to understand for most folks.....
 
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#23,200
#23,200
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