Japan fears second (H2) explosion

#51
#51
No nuclear, no coal, no petroleum...

I'm okay with going back to the days of horse and buggies and cooking on a wood fire. Never was that big a fan of the latest phone, computer, tv or electric car anyway.

I will miss seeing the Vols play on TV.

/sarcasm tag, for those whose detector is in the shop/
 
#52
#52
TennTradition said:
There is still a chance that reactors 1 and 3 can reach cold shutdown without containment rupture, but that depends on how bad 2 and the release from the spent fuel pool at 4 get. We don't know right now what the levels at the control room of 2 are, but it probably isn't pretty. It's a very hard decision. The issue us that walking away from these things is a big deal if you don't have cold shutdown. You risk very, very significant release. This is particularly true when you've already lost secondary containment.

The threat to life and well-being of the workers is a big concern to me right now. I do not think that they would be there if the operators felt there was no hope of cold shutdown. Unfortunately, only the operators know the radiation levels in the plant. You have to combine these two factors to make a decision, and we clearly don't have enough data points.
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This is what is so disconcerting in my view, from other threads -- the lack of information being given out from the plant and its operators. I mean, surely they have this data.

The fact that they apparently aren't releasing a stream of that information, except to say things like "It was 400 and is going down" while simultaneously telling 140,000 people to stay inside, is not very reassuring.
 
#53
#53
lawgator1 said:
The point is, a power failure can come from a lot of sources, not just earthquakes. I never got the impression that this problems was caused by pipes breaking, although I suppose that's possible and, yes, if that's the cause then presumably the Germans have less to worry about than the Pacific Rim.

So the Germans are going to go back and study whether they have adequate safeguards in place. What's the harm in that?
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The problem here doesn't appear to be loss of power. It was the loss if all backup cooling options due to the tsunami. The design basis threat from a tsunami was not sufficient, unfortunately and the plant was faced with a threat it wasn't designed to handle.

Reviewing the adequacy and relevance of the design basis and posed threats is always a reasonable exercise. Blindly closing plants, not neccessarily.
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#54
#54
J-P said:
No nuclear, no coal, no petroleum...

I'm okay with going back to the days of horse and buggies and cooking on a wood fire. Never was that big a fan of the latest phone, computer, tv or electric car anyway.

I will miss seeing the Vols play on TV.

/sarcasm tag, for those whose detector is in the shop/
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Stop acting as if the left wants to take all of those away without putting more efficient alternatives in their place.
 
#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
The point is, a power failure can come from a lot of sources, not just earthquakes. I never got the impression that this problems was caused by pipes breaking, although I suppose that's possible and, yes, if that's the cause then presumably the Germans have less to worry about than the Pacific Rim.

So the Germans are going to go back and study whether they have adequate safeguards in place. What's the harm in that?
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shutting down 10 of their 17 plants doesn't seem like an over reaction to you?
 
#56
#56
VOLatile said:
Stop acting as if the left wants to take all of those away without putting more efficient alternatives in their place.
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I have yet to see the left do that.

Wind and solar are not efficient. The left is generally anti-nuke. Natural gas releases as much carbon as oil and the plants are difficult to maintain.

Sorry, but I just don't see the left coming up with any real alternatives.
 
#57
#57
lawgator1 said:
This is what is so disconcerting in my view, from other threads -- the lack of information being given out from the plant and its operators. I mean, surely they have this data.

The fact that they apparently aren't releasing a stream of that information, except to say things like "It was 400 and is going down" while simultaneously telling 140,000 people to stay inside, is not very reassuring.
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loyalty to the company is very important in japan. it's not like here where people will openly queston management. if it was me i'd run away like a little girl.

VOLatile said:
Stop acting as if the left wants to take all of those away without putting more efficient alternatives in their place.
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sarcasm?
 
#59
#59
lawgator1 said:
This is what is so disconcerting in my view, from other threads -- the lack of information being given out from the plant and its operators. I mean, surely they have this data.

The fact that they apparently aren't releasing a stream of that information, except to say things like "It was 400 and is going down" while simultaneously telling 140,000 people to stay inside, is not very reassuring.
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The government needs to be giving trustworthy information about the levels near affected populations as well as what levels may soon be moving into those areas. This is a must. Hopefully they are getting this info on the ground.

As for the plant operator and the conditions at the plant, they could inform the public on a constant basis, but real time reporting there is really just between the company, the government, and the operators, IMO.

There is an assumption here that the Japanese government is capable and willing to make competent decisions using the information they have but we don't. Hopefully they are.
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#60
#60
droski said:
loyalty to the company is very important in japan. it's not like here where people will openly queston management. if it was me i'd run away like a little girl.
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You'd be right behind me, every step of the way.

We go through a 9.0 quake, a catastrophic tsunami, an estimated 10,000 dead, the market loses 15 % of its value in two days, and every 12 hours or so something blows up at the nuclear power plant and tell me, "Don't worry about it, but stay inside" ????

Yeah, right.
 
#62
#62
MG1968 said:
I have yet to see the left do that.

Wind and solar are not efficient. The left is generally anti-nuke. Natural gas releases as much carbon as oil and the plants are difficult to maintain.

Sorry, but I just don't see the left coming up with any real alternatives.
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Are you sure natural gas plants release as much carbon as oil per watt-hour? I know that coal is worse, and I thought oil was too.
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#63
#63
I've heard they told all but 60 of the 800 workers / heroes to evacuate. This might be old news by now.

The Nuclear Renaissance will have to be postponed until after the Revolution. There is no way we should be commissioning new facilities under the reign of Capital. Perhaps when the needs of people reign supreme over the needs of Capital, we can revisit this nearly endless supply of energy.

I've been looking at Tepco, and it is unfortunately a history riddled with mendacity (to be expected under the auspices of Capital) regarding their nuclear facilities. If the Japanese are going to lie about the safety of their nuclear industry, absolutely no one can be trusted.
 
#64
#64
TennTradition said:
Are you sure natural gas plants release as much carbon as oil per watt-hour? I know that coal is worse, and I thought oil was too.
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i was always under the impression that natural gas burned clean. it's more expensive currently than coal though.
 
#65
#65
utgibbs said:
I've heard they told all but 60 of the 800 workers / heroes to evacuate. This might be old news by now.

The Nuclear Renaissance will have to be postponed until after the Revolution. There is no way we should be commissioning new facilities under the reign of Capital. Perhaps when the needs of people reign supreme over the needs of Capital, we can revisit this nearly endless supply of energy.

I've been looking at Tepco, and it is unfortunately a history riddled with mendacity (to be expected under the auspices of Capital) regarding their nuclear facilities. If the Japanese are going to lie about the safety of their nuclear industry, absolutely no one can be trusted.
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because Chernobyl was such a roaring success
 
#68
#68
droski said:
i was always under the impression that natural gas burned clean. it's more expensive currently than coal though.
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Well, it certainly produces carbon and pollutants like SOx as well, but on a smaller scale with respect to carbon and much smaller for SOx. Natural gas can have NOx problems, I think.

So, clean is relative, basically.
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#70
#70
VOLatile said:
Stop acting as if the left wants to take all of those away without putting more efficient alternatives in their place.
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Did you just type this in with your solar powered laptop with wind powered disaster recovery backup system? :)
 
#71
#71
J-P said:
Did you just type this in with your solar powered laptop with wind powered disaster recovery backup system? :)
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Nah. I have a stationary bike that's hooked up to a battery system. I get some exercise in and energy.
 
#72
#72
VOLatile said:
Nah. I have a stationary bike that's hooked up to a battery system. I get some exercise in and energy.
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Nice. I tried doing that once but I kept getting my pants leg caught up in the bike chain.

Now I just shovel a bunch of coal into my steam powered generator, take photos of the black smoke billowing out of the smoke stack and email them to Al Gore.

I have thought of hosting a tree hugging festival on my property. Five gallons of propane gets you 3 hugs. :thumbsup:
 
#73
#73
I apologize to the OP for derailing this thread.

This is a serious matter that is going on in Japan and I got carried away with the jokes.

Ignore me and carry on...
 
#74
#74
VOLatile said:
Nah. I have a stationary bike that's hooked up to a battery system. I get some exercise in and energy.
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:good!:

For the benefit of others though, it takes dozens of bicyclists to heat your oven to 350F.

You're gonna need to hold a spin class in the house to cook your Christmas turkey....
 
#75
#75
utgibbs said:
:good!:

For the benefit of others though, it takes dozens of bicyclists to heat your oven to 350F.

You're gonna need to hold a spin class in the house to cook your Christmas turkey....
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I don't actually use one, but I did when I built robots to charge the 12v batteries.
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