Just how good was Greg Maddux?

#1
zjcvols

zjcvols

"On a Tennessee Saturday night."
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#1
In his prime (1993-1998), Maddux probably put up the greatest six year stretch in pitching history, considering that he played with all races, AND pitched during the steroid era. Look at these averages over six years:

18-7
235 innings
2.15 ERA, 196 ERA+
.959 WHIP
181 K's, 33 BB's
.4 HR/9

Now, if the strike didn't affect the 1994-1995 seasons, Maddux's averages would have been greater in terms of wins (20-8), BB's (36), K's (194), and innings (251).

Give him 36 starts during the strike years (instead of 25 in 1994 and 28 in 1995) and his numbers over those two seasons are startling.

1994
23-9
291 innings
1.56 ERA, 271 ERA+
.896 WHIP
47 BB's, 225 K's
.2 HR/9
14 CG

1995
24-3
269 innings
1.63 ERA, 262 ERA+
.811 WHIP
30 BB, 232 K's
.3 HR/9
13 CG

I'm starting to think you could make a substanial case Greg Maddux is the greatest pitcher of all time.
 
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#3
#3
The way he could dominate the strikezone with his command was awesome.
 
#4
#4
I agree. I think the only reason he doesn't get more attention is the lack of post season success.
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#5
#5
I like that story where he gave up a hr on purpose in the regular season, I think to jeff bagwell, so he would be looking for that pitch in the playoffs, that he would then refuse to throw.
 
#7
#7
The cutfastball was great to watch on TBS, the last 8 feet to the plate it'd break over the plate 8-10 inches the batter would just stand there dumbfounded.
 
#8
#8
oklavol said:
I like that story where he gave up a hr on purpose in the regular season, I think to jeff bagwell, so he would be looking for that pitch in the playoffs, that he would then refuse to throw.
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He may have been the best at setting up his pitches.
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#9
#9
Volst53 said:
Mudslide was great till the strike zone got smaller in the post season.
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His postseason struggles are a little overblown. He still had a postseason ERA in the low 3's. He wasn't as dominant in the playoffs, but he was also the victim of the Braves going into hibernation mode offensively at times.
 
#10
#10
GAVol said:
His postseason struggles are a little overblown. He still had a postseason ERA in the low 3's. He wasn't as dominant in the playoffs, but he was also the victim of the Braves going into hibernation mode offensively at times.
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He certainly pitched well enough to win.

I had the honor of speaking with him a couple times. Dude is a walking encyclopedia.
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#11
#11
GAVol said:
His postseason struggles are a little overblown. He still had a postseason ERA in the low 3's. He wasn't as dominant in the playoffs, but he was also the victim of the Braves going into hibernation mode offensively at times.
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I wasn't saying he wasn't good in the post season, just not the same kind of numbers.
 
#12
#12
Don't think Greg was clutch. If I had to win a game, im starting Smoltz. Some guys are just better big game pitchers.
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#13
#13
Maddux was fine in the postseason. The difference between his regular season and postseason ERAs was all of 0.11. That that translated into an 11-14 postseason record was more the product of bad luck and crappy run support than anything else. Maddux had an ERA of 2.09 (!) in five World Series games, yet that got him a lousy 2-3 record because the Braves couldn't score. How is that "not being clutch"?
 
#14
#14
Vercingetorix said:
Maddux was fine in the postseason. The difference between his regular season and postseason ERAs was all of 0.11. That that translated into an 11-14 postseason record was more the product of bad luck and crappy run support than anything else. Maddux had an ERA of 2.09 (!) in five World Series games, yet that got him a lousy 2-3 record because the Braves couldn't score. How is that "not being clutch"?
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I see that arguement but some guys just know how to win in big spots. Schilling, Petitie, Smoltz. Those guys were gamers. For whatever reason Maddux couldn't pull it off. Not saying he was bad but that's why he doesn't get the love.

I think a pitchers post season success feeds the offense. If a guy has struggled the offense presses too much. If a guy is known to be successful, the offense finds a way to come up with those timely hits.
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#15
#15
I may be a bit biased because he is my favorite player of all time but Pedro's 6 year stretch between 97-03 is as good as it gets. I think he is the greatest pitcher of all time...

Obviously taking nothing away from that nerdy looking Maddux dude...
 
#16
#16
VOLinthaATL said:
I may be a bit biased because he is my favorite player of all time but Pedro's 6 year stretch between 97-03 is as good as it gets. I think he is the greatest pitcher of all time...

Obviously taking nothing away from that nerdy looking Maddux dude...
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Pedro's stretch is awesome, but I'm taking Koufax's stretch every day.

Pedro's combo of pitches was unbelievable, especially with the way he could move the fastball on you. Regardless, he didn't have two absolute dominators like Koufax, who had the best two pitches in the game.
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#17
#17
BigPapaVol said:
Pedro's stretch is awesome, but I'm taking Koufax's stretch every day.

Pedro's combo of pitches was unbelievable, especially with the way he could move the fastball on you. Regardless, he didn't have two absolute dominators like Koufax, who had the best two pitches in the game.
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Give me Pedro's fastball and change-up and I'll win 20 games right now.
 
#21
#21
tri_vol said:
I see that arguement but some guys just know how to win in big spots. Schilling, Petitie, Smoltz. Those guys were gamers. For whatever reason Maddux couldn't pull it off. Not saying he was bad but that's why he doesn't get the love.
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This is the same logic that has people rhapsodizing about what really sets Derek Jeter apart is how clutch he is in the postseason, how he really rises to the moment in big spots. And then when you point out to them that he's only been good in the first round and the World Series, and he's actually sucked out loud his whole career in the ALCS, and you ask them to explain why Mr. Big Gamer apparently doesn't feel like rising to the occasion during that round, then they change the subject or start mumbling something about sample size. Which, of course, is the answer -- for all of it.

Everybody knows that there's a huge random component in baseball; everyone knows that's why they play 162 teams and the very best teams still only win about 60 percent of the time. You win 8-1 one night and lose 6-0 the next and nobody thinks anything about it. But somehow, when the playoffs start, everybody forgets about that and happily pretends that it's about character, it's about being gritty and a gamer and all that other happy horseshat. Give up some runs or go 0-5 in August and nobody thinks anything about it; do it in October and now you're a loser who can't deliver under the bright lights. It's silly.
 
#22
#22
Vercingetorix said:
This is the same logic that has people rhapsodizing about what really sets Derek Jeter apart is how clutch he is in the postseason, how he really rises to the moment in big spots. And then when you point out to him that he's only been good in the first round and the World Series, and he's actually sucked out loud his whole career in the ALCS, and you ask them to explain why Mr. Big Gamer apparently doesn't feel like rising to the occasion during that round, then they change the subject or start mumbling something about sample size. Which, of course, is the answer -- for all of it.

Everybody knows that there's a huge random component in baseball; everyone knows that's why they play 162 teams and the very best teams still only win about 60 percent of the time. You win 8-1 one night and lose 6-0 the next and nobody thinks anything about it. But somehow, when the playoffs start, everybody forgets about that and happily pretends that it's about character, it's about being gritty and a gamer and all that other happy horseshat. Give up some runs or go 0-5 in August and nobody thinks anything about it; do it in October and now you're a loser who can't deliver under the bright lights. It's silly.
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When are we getting to together for a beer? I am in the process of moving back to Cincy but we have got to make that happen. It will probably be a long night tho so tell the wife because the baseball talk will never end...
 
#23
#23
Vercingetorix said:
This is the same logic that has people rhapsodizing about what really sets Derek Jeter apart is how clutch he is in the postseason, how he really rises to the moment in big spots. And then when you point out to them that he's only been good in the first round and the World Series, and he's actually sucked out loud his whole career in the ALCS, and you ask them to explain why Mr. Big Gamer apparently doesn't feel like rising to the occasion during that round, then they change the subject or start mumbling something about sample size. Which, of course, is the answer -- for all of it.

Everybody knows that there's a huge random component in baseball; everyone knows that's why they play 162 teams and the very best teams still only win about 60 percent of the time. You win 8-1 one night and lose 6-0 the next and nobody thinks anything about it. But somehow, when the playoffs start, everybody forgets about that and happily pretends that it's about character, it's about being gritty and a gamer and all that other happy horseshat. Give up some runs or go 0-5 in August and nobody thinks anything about it; do it in October and now you're a loser who can't deliver under the bright lights. It's silly.
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I agree with you but compare jeter or man ram to a-rod or barry bonds in the post season. As you said baseball is random and even the great ones fail 70% of the time. So even clutch guys are going to fail more often than not.
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#25
#25
VOLinthaATL said:
When are we getting to together for a beer? I am in the process of moving back to Cincy but we have got to make that happen. It will probably be a long night tho so tell the wife because the baseball talk will never end...
Click to expand...

I'm definitely in, if we can figure out a way to make the timing work with my dumping the kids off on the frau for a night. When are you moving?
 
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