Kansas St at #3 Oklahoma

#78
#78
KoachKrab127 said:
Stupid penalty there. Oh, it's not an automatic first down? I thought defensive holding was.
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UTK said:
No. Only PI. Holding is just 10 yards
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VolnJC said:
I thought defensive holding was automatic first down?
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KoachKrab127 said:
I swear I've seen defensive holding be automatic first downs. Is that only in the NFL?
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UTK said:
Probably because it's less than 10 yards to go most of the time so it usually results in first downs. This time was just a rare case where it didn't lol

Not sure about NFL rules atm tbh. Don't watch enough of it haha
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Actually it normally is, but there's an exception to it that factors in depending on how the play, well, plays out.

If the QB doesn't throw the pass that play (or as the rules put it, if there isn't a legal forward pass that actually crosses the line of scrimmage that play) - i.e., he decides to run the ball, he gets sacked, he doesn't throw the ball past the line of scrimmage, or some other reason - the play only receives a 10 (or at maximum 15) yard penalty. So, since the OU QB was sacked (and didn't get a pass off across the line of scrimmage), the defensive lineman obstructing that RB trying to get out as a WR was a 10-yard penalty but no first down this time.

Had the OU QB gotten thrown the ball (and it passed the line of scrimmage that play), then this would have resulted in penalty yardage plus an automatic first down.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR17updated.pdf
 
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#79
#79
TrueOrange said:
Actually it normally is, but there's an exception to it that factors in depending on how the play, well, plays out.

If the QB doesn't throw the pass that play (or as the rules put it, if there isn't a legal forward pass that actually crosses the line of scrimmage that play) - i.e., he decides to run the ball, he gets sacked, he doesn't throw the ball past the line of scrimmage, or some other reason - the play only receives a 10 (or at maximum 15) yard penalty. So, since he was sacked (and didn't get a pass off across the line of scrimmage), the defensive lineman obstructing that RB trying to get out as a WR was a 10-yard penalty but no first down this time.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR17updated.pdf
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Thanks for clearing that up. Is it also true that if you gain rushing yards on the play, the penalty yards are added on to the end of the run? I think I saw something weird like that happen before as well.
 
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#80
#80
Here it is in the words of the link:

Holding and Use of Hands or Arms: Defense
ARTICLE 4.

a. Defensive players may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players:
---- 1. When attempting to reach the runner.
---- 2. Who are obviously attempting to block them.

b. A defensive player legally may use his hands or arms to ward off or block an opponent in an attempt to reach a loose ball (Rule 9-1-5, Exceptions 3 and 4 and Rule 9-3-6, Exceptions 3 and 5):
---- 1. During a backward pass, fumble or kick that he is eligible to touch.
---- 2. During any forward pass that crossed the neutral zone and has been
touched by any player or official.

c. When making no attempt to get at the ball or the runner, defensive players must comply with Article 3, paragraphs a and b above.

d. Defensive players may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise illegally obstruct an opponent other than a runner.

e. Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal (A.R. 9-3-5-I).

PENALTY [c-e]—10 or 15 yards [S38, S42, S43 or S45].
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And the designation for when the ball is actually passed:

Use of Hands or Arms by Defense: Passing Downs

ARTICLE 5. During a legal forward pass play in which the pass crosses the neutral zone, if before the pass is touched there is a contact foul by Team B beyond the neutral zone against an eligible receiver (other than pass interference), the penalty includes an automatic first down.

PENALTY—10 or 15 yards and automatic first down if the first down is not in conflict with other rules [S38].
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http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR17updated.pdf
 
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#81
#81
TrueOrange said:
Actually it normally is, but there's an exception to it that factors in depending on how the play, well, plays out.

If the QB doesn't throw the pass that play (or as the rules put it, if there isn't a legal forward pass that actually crosses the line of scrimmage that play) - i.e., he decides to run the ball, he gets sacked, he doesn't throw the ball past the line of scrimmage, or some other reason - the play only receives a 10 (or at maximum 15) yard penalty. So, since he was sacked (and didn't get a pass off across the line of scrimmage), the defensive lineman obstructing that RB trying to get out as a WR was a 10-yard penalty but no first down this time.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR17updated.pdf
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I see. Thanks for the info
 
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#86
#86
KoachKrab127 said:
Thanks for clearing that up. Is it also true that if you gain rushing yards on the play, the penalty yards are added on to the end of the run? I think I saw something weird like that happen before as well.
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That's a little harder to find. I don't think so from what I read...the NCAA publication link specifically notes when penalties should be enforced from the spot of the penalty or from the end of the run/penalty, but it doesn't use either of those for either one of the defensive holding penalty designations.

Do you have a specific example of it happening during a game / a specific game during which this happened?
 
#87
#87
TrueOrange said:
That's a little harder to find. I don't think so from what I read...the NCAA publication link specifically notes when penalties should be enforced from the spot of the penalty or from the end of the run/penalty, but it doesn't use either of those for either one of the defensive holding penalty designations.

Do you have a specific example of it happening during a game / a specific game during which this happened?
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Oh, it was a long time ago in an NFL game. I was watching the Patriots, rooting against them, during their undefeated season in 2007. Tom Brady scrambled for a first down, and the refs called holding on the defense and added 5 yards onto the end of the run. I think it was against Buffalo. It was one of the games they almost lost, and it was on the last drive of the game.
 
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