Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[Nute Gunray]

Recruiting, coaching, chemistry/effort: three components of winning basketball. Right now Kellie is failing on all. She needs to show dramatic improvement soon or she needs to go. I hope she can do it, but it's not looking good at this point.

However, remember Kellie's team is 19-3 and was 18-1 with a no. 4 ranking just 3 games ago.

 

[madtownvol]

You think Miles has hit her ceiling? I was hoping she could still improve, she's very young.

Did nothing to address sounds like didn't know, didn't try. It was probably more like "was not able to successfully address". Top notch PGs don't grow on trees and the LVs were not exactly a destination spot. If we don't tank too badly right here maybe she'll be in a better position to grab one. Sure hope so because that is the position where all the dominos start falling.

Exactly, freshman PG's do tend to get better. I also think Miles has a great upside so, I don't know why some would want to declare her a bust so soon. The transfer portal has also changed the recruiting landscape. When this season ends, who knows what "fish" might appear in the open sea. The near term issue is how the get the best out of the guards we have now.

 

[Pride85]

Again, I don't get it. One game and some fans are convinced our coach is clueless and our 19-3 team is somehow horrible! Unglaublich!

 

[pasadenavol]

Oh my, your powerful words of personal responsibility have completely melted me and my snowflake sensibilities. How am I even responding to your moral incantations where losing will NOT BE TOLERATED and WILL BE PUNISHED.

For the record, Kellie pulled Rae several times after TOs dude. She got in Jordan's face for several of her turn overs,. Listen to her post-game press conference. she totally gets where the problems are and where the team failed to answer the bell when Florida came out punching. She did not make excuses. her only "I don't know," was in saying I don't know that we could beat Florida if we played them tomorrow because they are better than us right now. You call that coddling players?

As KJH said, they have to figure what they can do against a team that is really good at playing a high pressure defensive game.

This team is now 19-3 (having lost 2 or their last three). When they were a way above expectations 18-1, this same group of players was being praised for their mental toughness and grit. They have hit a bad stretch. They were just come off a tough OT victory BTW. A team that wins by effort can also loose by effort when fatigue and injuries to key players kick in.

So, let me get this all straight: About a week ago, the LVs were a tough, resilient team that showed a lot grit. Now this week, they have suddenly turned into coddled Snowflakes who refuse to take responsibility and Kellie is a feckless coach who is all about "rainbows, unicorns and bunny farts."

Seriously, dude. We got outplayed by a team that is on a real hot streak. They are a match-up nightmare for us, particularly when our outside shots are not falling.

But, on the flipside, the LVs have outplayed several other good teams this season. I guess Gary Blair must just be singing kumbaya and giving his players participation trophies judging from drubbing this coddled team gave to Texas AM earlier in the year.

So, you can get all moral outraged about kids today and create a fantasy world, where Kellie is some kind of softy pushover, but the reality is that sometimes you run into a team that outplays you and then you to find a way to bounce back.

If you want to reference yourself as a Snowflake, I have no problem with your right to self-identify as such, but to be clear on what you have to say:

1. Yes, about two weeks ago this team looked like something really special. They had come from behind wins in all but a few games this season. That does show toughness and grit. After Keyen went down, and of course no one really knows why, but this team has not been the same. Stop trying to put words in other peoples' mouths (as I've seen you do on other threads) I NEVER called Kellie 'feckless'. Those are your vicious words, not mine. (You must get that skill from your fellow snowflakes..lol). Kellie does need to use her knowledge and experience as an 18 year HC to motivate these players to step up and turn things around. Part of that is teaching them how to break a press and how not to turn the ball over, using the backboard when you're 2 feet from the basket. That part is completely on her and her staff! Again, she was a point guard and has been a HC for 18 years, surely she has some press-breaking schemes up her sleeves, no?

2. If she needs to do some things to get this team's attention (such as benching turnover-prone players, or having them run a lap or two, or even removing their locker room privileges for a week), those are some recommendations that we've seen Pat institute herself in the past. I watched the meeting she held where she handed out the green keys to all the players when Keyen went down. That was so sweet and so soft...much like rainbows and unicorns. It was like watching Butch with some kitchy 'brick by brick' or 'five star hearts' motivation. If it works, great. But obviously it didn't because they got embarrassed by Auburn next time out. Maybe it is time to try some different motivational tactics!

3. Florida is on a hot streak, but even so, there's no excuse to be ranked in the Top 10 in the country and lose to an unranked team by 20+ points. You call timeouts to stop the bleeding, you shuffle the lineup and identify who to run the offense through, and a plethora of plays that you work out in practice. As for the Auburn game, they were not on a streak, are NOT a good team overall, and had not won a conference game in two years. No excuse to have the talent TN does and lose by more than 10 points.

4. I have absolutely nothing against Kellie. I enjoyed watching her play and watching her start rebuilding this program. I hope she ends up being the modern version of Pat Summitt. I want nothing more than to see her succeed and bring this once proud program back to the top of WBB. My two points of emphasis were to #1 instill some more accountability when the team isn't focused and disciplined (20+ turnovers in a game does not = focused or disciplined) and #2 pour as much effort as you can to bring top talent to the Hill.

That's it. So if you want to get all upset over a little criticism of the coaching staff and some recommendations for getting the team's attention, then so be it. No skin off my teeth. But PLEASE do not put words in my mouth to try to denigrate me...

 

[madtownvol]

If you want to reference yourself as a Snowflake, I have no problem with your right to self-identify as such, but to be clear on what you have to say:

1. Yes, about two weeks ago this team looked like something really special. They had come from behind wins in all but a few games this season. That does show toughness and grit. After Keyen went down, and of course no one really knows why, but this team has not been the same. Stop trying to put words in other peoples' mouths (as I've seen you do on other threads) I NEVER called Kellie 'feckless'. Those are your vicious words, not mine. (You must get that skill from your fellow snowflakes..lol). Kellie does need to use her knowledge and experience as an 18 year HC to motivate these players to step up and turn things around. Part of that is teaching them how to break a press and how not to turn the ball over, using the backboard when you're 2 feet from the basket. That part is completely on her and her staff! Again, she was a point guard and has been a HC for 18 years, surely she has some press-breaking schemes up her sleeves, no?

2. If she needs to do some things to get this team's attention (such as benching turnover-prone players, or having them run a lap or two, or even removing their locker room privileges for a week), those are some recommendations that we've seen Pat institute herself in the past. I watched the meeting she held where she handed out the green keys to all the players when Keyen went down. That was so sweet and so soft...much like rainbows and unicorns. It was like watching Butch with some kitchy 'brick by brick' or 'five star hearts' motivation. If it works, great. But obviously it didn't because they got embarrassed by Auburn next time out. Maybe it is time to try some different motivational tactics!

3. Florida is on a hot streak, but even so, there's no excuse to be ranked in the Top 10 in the country and lose to an unranked team by 20+ points. You call timeouts to stop the bleeding, you shuffle the lineup and identify who to run the offense through, and a plethora of plays that you work out in practice. As for the Auburn game, they were not on a streak, are NOT a good team overall, and had not won a conference game in two years. No excuse to have the talent TN does and lose by more than 10 points.

4. I have absolutely nothing against Kellie. I enjoyed watching her play and watching her start rebuilding this program. I hope she ends up being the modern version of Pat Summitt. I want nothing more than to see her succeed and bring this once proud program back to the top of WBB. My two points of emphasis were to #1 instill some more accountability when the team isn't focused and disciplined (20+ turnovers in a game does not = focused or disciplined) and #2 pour as much effort as you can to bring top talent to the Hill.

That's it. So if you want to get all upset over a little criticism of the coaching staff and some recommendations for getting the team's attention, then so be it. No skin off my teeth. But PLEASE do not put words in my mouth to try to denigrate me...

Hey, you dropped the "if you want to live in Woke culture," and the snowflake dig is often implied when people use that term as an epithet, But to your exact words, yes, so shamefully soft of Kellie to try to help her team get through the emotional stress of losing a team leader to a season ending injury. How dare she hand out green keys. She should have just yelled at them like the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket" "Maggots play harder!!!!!!"

Honestly, I am not upset, I find this entire discussion, which goes beyond your post, comical. Upsets like this one happen every year to ranked teams and have been a part of the basketball landscape for a long time, even for Pat Summitt. But when they happen to this team, it is because everyone's gotten soft and kids today lack blah, blah

 

[Voluble2]

If not for the current dysfunction, Kellie was probably in really good shape to get some upgraded talent from the portal. Hopefully she rights the ship so that she doesn't get dismissed as "Holly 2.0". This is where a good SECT/NCAAT run becomes essential.

This is a very real danger. It would be one thing if we had some talent stockpiled, but this is make or break time. Kellie's high water mark will be this year, or maybe next at the latest if recruiting does not turn around. And frankly, it is too late to prevent a downturn with high school recruiting. Her fate hangs by a thread in the portal now.

We got a taste in the last game of what we will look like without Horston and Key. It is not pretty.

 

[J-Dog 1313]

This is a very real danger. It would be one thing if we had some talent stockpiled, but this is make or break time. Kellie's high water mark will be this year, or maybe next at the latest if recruiting does not turn around. And frankly, it is too late to prevent a downturn with high school recruiting. Her fate hangs by a thread in the portal now.

We got a taste in the last game of what we will look like without Horston and Key. It is not pretty.

I don't believe the gloom and doom scenario you paint. There is plenty of basketball to be played this year and the LVs are still in the hunt for this year's SEC regular season championship as well as the SEC tournament championship. And next year's team will be just (or even more) talented than this year's team. Moreover, recruiting will pick up and, along with the transfer portal, will enable the LVs program to sustain its rise back to prominence. GBO.
.

 

[feathersax]

They are turning it over at the same rate Pat's 2007-2008 national championship team turned it over. 17.5 turnovers per game that team averaged and somehow managed to win a national championship even with the look on Pat's Face

Like this one?

 

[Volfan2012]

Just hoping she can steady the team for a finish that we can get the two NCAA games at home. If we can still get those two games at our place would give us a great shot to advance to the sweet sixteen then anything can happen from there.

 

[LadyOrange]

So Holly, was always a top one to three recruiter, Dean taught Glory to stay in a game, and Mercedes. Kellie's staff can't keep Key in game. Kellie can't recruit point guards, or coach one up, that can bring the ball up court. I'm sorry but no, they suck, Miles has promise, but Horston, a Holly recruit, is only one who can. She's a point guard Hall of famer, and she has nobody but, what Holly left her who can actually bring the ball up, Horston. I love Kelly.Kelly, I think she's a good coach. I think she needs to fire herw entire staff!
One they can't recruit! We are Auburn after what Holly left us, and the second they just can't coach.
But, what the hell was this game tonight? Frankly, no Holly team looked this bad, at this point, ever, granted she was arguably one of the top two best recruiters in the country, but seriously what the heck was what we saw on the court today? I don't think we even deserve to host sweet 16 games! I don't think we're going to win our first game in the SSC tournament with what I saw tonight. Ray Burrell is a great player, but she need to be rained in as I've always said, she plays a different tempo from the rest of the team, and that's not on Holly, she brought in a great talent ( including Horston to Key to Burrell, Hayes, Green, and Westbrook). Not on Ray, she's brilliant. And we cannot ask Jordan Horton, to bring the ball up everytime, and do something. And what has Kelly recruited... A bunch of guards, she hasn't coached up, and she was an all American Guard, that can't bring the ball up yet... This is a guard that used to face against Latte from North Carolina, but she can't teach a guard to bring the ball up court? I don't know where we're going with this team, we could be going up... we could go down. This is the lowest point in her coaching career, she appears list, her staff inadequate. I point this out, because, this team is way better than what doing, then their going to be ranked. I doubt we win two games in the SEC tournament. If we beat UConn, and , seriously, there's no reason we shouldn't, unless Kelly can't out coach, Gino who's lost it and a team that just didn't know how to play together, kind of like what we've got right now, bad and we got better disenfranchised don't know how to play together aren't coached well. Together aren't coached well. Missing something? Just combobulated talent, that holly left us mind you, and Uconn sucks, we might stay in the top 16.. We don't deserve to be, we really don't. We were such an inferior team on the court as tonight. Holly, regularly beat Miss St and SC at this time of season. we get what we wish for...this team is lost, Key is lost Rae is half way gone, and after Jordan...Holly level talent is a dteam

Did you say something?

 

[Coach Jumper]

Did you say something?

nope...just laid on the keyboard and random letters happened.
Nothing substantial

 

[Volfan2012]

I totally keep supporting Kellie still ahead of where I thought we'd be this season. I thought we'd go 22 and 7 which would again be a step forward. I will have to see who she adds in the off season and the 2023 class both are very important to continuing progress in the right direction.

 

[Deebowbear]

I totally keep supporting Kellie still ahead of where I thought we'd be this season. I thought we'd go 22 and 7 which would again be a step forward. I will have to see who she adds in the off season and the 2023 class both are very important to continuing progress in the right direction.

Hope they’re some transfer out, we have nobody to replace key when in foul trouble. Now she is scared to play in games because of fouling out. Idk what has gone wrong lately but not getting fix is not good. We need to send part of team to portal and recruit better players next year or it will be bad we don’t have what we need

 

[docholiday]

I said this several years ago. You make Becky Hammon the highest paid women's coach and continue to hang banners.
I have no idea if she would want to recruit. Money talks and her current salary is 1 mill/yr.

 

[PineyBluff Vol]

Seems to me the basics of basketball are missing. Dribble, Shoot, Defend are missing. To much softness in this group, mentally, physically and emotionally. Not giving up on this team, just trying to understand these problems we are now having.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

I said this several years ago. You make Becky Hammon the highest paid women's coach and continue to hang banners.
I have no idea if she would want to recruit. Money talks and her current salary is 1 mill/yr.

Becky Hammon seems to have a halo following her.... I don't know if her being hired would lead to banners being hung.... so much else has to change.... beyond the power of one person

I think KJH a good coach

 

[Volfan2012]

Hope they’re some transfer out, we have nobody to replace key when in foul trouble. Now she is scared to play in games because of fouling out. Idk what has gone wrong lately but not getting fix is not good. We need to send part of team to portal and recruit better players next year or it will be bad we don’t have what we need

We have enough scholarship open next season to get any players we'd need to make this team so much better. We just have to get them. We have four scholarships so you grab couple guards and one big post your fine next season. That being that I expect Karoline to be a factor next season and Puckett to be even more of a factor, Then you add the return of Marta Suarez and Justine Pissott looks to be far more talented than this team. This of course being finding an elite guard or two and a power player inside that can help Key.

 

[stlvolsfan]

So Holly, was always a top one to three recruiter, Dean taught Glory to stay in a game, and Mercedes. Kellie's staff can't keep Key in game. Kellie can't recruit point guards, or coach one up, that can bring the ball up court. I'm sorry but no, they suck, Miles has promise, but Horston, a Holly recruit, is only one who can. She's a point guard Hall of famer, and she has nobody but, what Holly left her who can actually bring the ball up, Horston. I love Kelly.Kelly, I think she's a good coach. I think she needs to fire herw entire staff!
One they can't recruit! We are Auburn after what Holly left us, and the second they just can't coach.
But, what the hell was this game tonight? Frankly, no Holly team looked this bad, at this point, ever, granted she was arguably one of the top two best recruiters in the country, but seriously what the heck was what we saw on the court today? I don't think we even deserve to host sweet 16 games! I don't think we're going to win our first game in the SSC tournament with what I saw tonight. Ray Burrell is a great player, but she need to be rained in as I've always said, she plays a different tempo from the rest of the team, and that's not on Holly, she brought in a great talent ( including Horston to Key to Burrell, Hayes, Green, and Westbrook). Not on Ray, she's brilliant. And we cannot ask Jordan Horton, to bring the ball up everytime, and do something. And what has Kelly recruited... A bunch of guards, she hasn't coached up, and she was an all American Guard, that can't bring the ball up yet... This is a guard that used to face against Latte from North Carolina, but she can't teach a guard to bring the ball up court? I don't know where we're going with this team, we could be going up... we could go down. This is the lowest point in her coaching career, she appears list, her staff inadequate. I point this out, because, this team is way better than what doing, then their going to be ranked. I doubt we win two games in the SEC tournament. If we beat UConn, and , seriously, there's no reason we shouldn't, unless Kelly can't out coach, Gino who's lost it and a team that just didn't know how to play together, kind of like what we've got right now, bad and we got better disenfranchised don't know how to play together aren't coached well. Together aren't coached well. Missing something? Just combobulated talent, that holly left us mind you, and Uconn sucks, we might stay in the top 16.. We don't deserve to be, we really don't. We were such an inferior team on the court as tonight. Holly, regularly beat Miss St and SC at this time of season. we get what we wish for...this team is lost, Key is lost Rae is half way gone, and after Jordan...Holly level talent is a dteam

Your main recruiter hasn’t been on her job for a year yet. Just take a deep breath and relax. Sheesh.

 

[stlvolsfan]

The main post from Iowa, Indiana, and Nebraska(clearly Boston and Lee as well)have plays run for them and also have post moves. An actual step through traffic and a bank in shot off the backboard. Key has games shooting 4 or 5 shots total. That is just a red flag for me. Key doesn't get enough touches, shot attempts, and rarely gets good passes thrown into her from the guards even in good post position. What gives? It's maddening having so much height and not using the advantage offensively. Outside of just rebound put backs, or layups UT really doesn't have inside plays for their post players.

I don’t think that’s it. I don’t think Tamari is comfortable on the offensive end. She never demands the ball. When she gets it she’s generally looking to pass it back out. All the players you mentioned can take you off the dribble, shoot a high post jumper and Tamari doesn’t. Doesn’t mean she can’t get there but as of now, that’s not part of her game and it’s limiting her.

 

[glv98]

Becky Hammon seems to have a halo following her.... I don't know if her being hired would lead to banners being hung.... so much else has to change.... beyond the power of one person

Hammond is the Jon Gruden of Women's Basketball. Savior in a package.

The main post from Iowa, Indiana, and Nebraska(clearly Boston and Lee as well)have plays run for them and also have post moves. An actual step through traffic and a bank in shot off the backboard. Key has games shooting 4 or 5 shots total. That is just a red flag for me. Key doesn't get enough touches, shot attempts, and rarely gets good passes thrown into her from the guards even in good post position. What gives? It's maddening having so much height and not using the advantage offensively. Outside of just rebound put backs, or layups UT really doesn't have inside plays for their post players.

I don’t think that’s it. I don’t think Tamari is comfortable on the offensive end. She never demands the ball. When she gets it she’s generally looking to pass it back out. All the players you mentioned can take you off the dribble, shoot a high post jumper and Tamari doesn’t. Doesn’t mean she can’t get there but as of now, that’s not part of her game and it’s limiting her.

Key's lack of involvement on offense is very troublesome and I think the problem is what's identified in both of these posts. I was thinking last night I'm not sure Key has any actual post moves. The few shots she gets up are when she catches a lob and scores (when she hits the layup) over a defender. She just doesn't appear to be able to create her own shot. Not sure why at this point in her career and worried it won't change.

Our guards, who tend to overdribble and telegraph eventual passes, just struggle to get Key the ball in the only position she can score from. I understand she gets hung on, pulled, pushed, etc., but so does every other center in the league. All the more reason a few actual moves would help her so much. I'm sure they desperately want to get Key more shots, they talk about after every game. But limitations both with her and with the guards are holding her back.

 

[Remy]

Key needs to learn that drop step and power the ball up ... period.

 

[turbovol]

Hammond is the Jon Gruden of Women's Basketball. Savior in a package.


Key's lack of involvement on offense is very troublesome and I think the problem is what's identified in both of these posts. I was thinking last night I'm not sure Key has any actual post moves. The few shots she gets up are when she catches a lob and scores (when she hits the layup) over a defender. She just doesn't appear to be able to create her own shot. Not sure why at this point in her career and worried it won't change.

Our guards, who tend to overdribble and telegraph eventual passes, just struggle to get Key the ball in the only position she can score from. I understand she gets hung on, pulled, pushed, etc., but so does every other center in the league. All the more reason a few actual moves would help her so much. I'm sure they desperately want to get Key more shots, they talk about after every game. But limitations both with her and with the guards are holding her back.

This is it: Key simply does not have the athleticism to be an effective player. She took and made a little half-hook or somesuch against Florida--but she is very, very limited in what she can do. Sometimes she gets excellent low-block position but our guards/wings don't pass her the ball--they hesitate and miss the moment. This is coaching. But even with her height and size, you need move quickly when you get the ball in the paint, and she does not move quickly. I'm not criticizing her; it's just the way it is. Our last National Championship team had a very big center named Cain, who was much like Key, except that we didn't need Cain that much--she wasn't a starter, as I recall, because we had Anosike at center, who was very athletic.

As for Hammon: If Fulmer had been bold and creative, he would have pursued her and made her an offer she perhaps couldn't have refused. She might very well have refused--probably would have, as she's been involved in pro basketball for a long time now--but it would have been an idea worth trying, for sure, But Fulmer wasn't exactly bold, creative or tireless when it came to replacing Warlick. That's not a knock on Harper, just that Fulmer didn't exactly beat the bushes with his coaching search. I actually wrote one of our female associate athletic directors and urged her to consider Princeton's Courtney Banghart, who was not only very successful at Princeton but is a very impressive individual. They didn't--and then North Carolina hired her, and Banghart has been having more recruiting success than we have, and it's annoying. We should not be out-recruited by a program that has zero national title and, like us, changed coaches not long ago.

 

[NeedOrange]

I totally keep supporting Kellie still ahead of where I thought we'd be this season. I thought we'd go 22 and 7 which would again be a step forward. I will have to see who she adds in the off season and the 2023 class both are very important to continuing progress in the right direction.

Wow o wow. Thanks for reminding me. I think we exchanged posts that we had come to the same conclusion. I can also remember a number of posts that said this recruiting class (21) was a good core class one that a foundation could be built upon. I only remember CJ extolling the class as having a conference FOY. Then the wins came and all of a sudden the expectations became bigger and bigger. At the beginning of the year many people looked at this team and said they are definitely a sweet sixteen team and probably elite eight. Then the talk was of #1 seed and which region to get. How the final four was a real possibility. In the beginning almost everyone was happy that KJH had turned around the negative vibes attached to the team and the players were buying into her system. The future that once was bright and full of hope is now gloom and despair. I guess we are all typical fans living vicariously through the struggles of 18 to 21 year old girls. Not realizing that the disappointment that we are experiencing has been caused by our own self's desires to be validated by the girls' achievements. Because we are disappointed we rain criticism and condemnation down on them. And now that these same girls are struggling and needing support, they find the family, they thought they joined, is calling for their athletic heads.

 

[Rooster1]

Wow o wow. Thanks for reminding me. I think we exchanged posts that we had come to the same conclusion. I can also remember a number of posts that said this recruiting class (21) was a good core class one that a foundation could be built upon. I only remember CJ extolling the class as having a conference FOY. Then the wins came and all of a sudden the expectations became bigger and bigger. At the beginning of the year many people looked at this team and said they are definitely a sweet sixteen team and probably elite eight. Then the talk was of #1 seed and which region to get. How the final four was a real possibility. In the beginning almost everyone was happy that KJH had turned around the negative vibes attached to the team and the players were buying into her system. The future that once was bright and full of hope is now gloom and despair. I guess we are all typical fans living vicariously through the struggles of 18 to 21 year old girls. Not realizing that the disappointment that we are experiencing has been caused by our own self's desires to be validated by the girls' achievements. Because we are disappointed we rain criticism and condemnation down on them. And now that these same girls are struggling and needing support, they find the family, they thought they joined, is calling for their athletic heads.

Oh look, another attempt by a conner to impart great wisdom and educate everyone on the dynamics of the UT team and fan base. Two weeks ago this conner was sniveling around these parts with the "woe be my husky" BS. Now they are back to lecturing the Vol masses on how it all works.

 

[stlvolsfan]

Hammond is the Jon Gruden of Women's Basketball. Savior in a package.


Key's lack of involvement on offense is very troublesome and I think the problem is what's identified in both of these posts. I was thinking last night I'm not sure Key has any actual post moves. The few shots she gets up are when she catches a lob and scores (when she hits the layup) over a defender. She just doesn't appear to be able to create her own shot. Not sure why at this point in her career and worried it won't change.

Our guards, who tend to overdribble and telegraph eventual passes, just struggle to get Key the ball in the only position she can score from. I understand she gets hung on, pulled, pushed, etc., but so does every other center in the league. All the more reason a few actual moves would help her so much. I'm sure they desperately want to get Key more shots, they talk about after every game. But limitations both with her and with the guards are holding her back.

Are you saying we need to check Becky’s old emails?