Lady Vols Ball Security (Turnovers)

[Lucy]

After considerable thought, I'm going to break my own rule and take an individual player to task. I don't do ths lightly but it's been eating at me for a couple of weeks now. So here goes.

I have formed a love/hate relationship with Jordan Horston. When she is good she is so very very good. When she is bad she is a turnover looking for a place to happen. To me, the worst part is that it appears many of her turnovers are the result of inattention, laziness, or massive brain farts. It's inexplicable...and inexcusable, in my opinion. I've lost count of the times she has driven headlong into a mass of players in a seemingly heroic attempt to score while failing to look for and identify an open player with a much better opportunity to score. Is this a heroic or a very selfish act? I think it's selfish "hero ball." Your mileage may vary.

I'm to the point that I think she needs some bench time to get her head in the game. Maybe that would help? Maybe not.

*rant off*

I would think maybe reevaluate when she is a Sophomore. For these really gifted kids their athleticism lets them develop perspectives/habits in high school that don’t translate to college. She’s probably still figuring that out. She passes up an awful lot of open shots to be selfish from my seat. If anything she is looking for a highlight assist which I’m sure her teammates appreciate. Hah!
I really do think she will be an AA for us before she leaves.

 

[creekdipper]

My biggest gripe with Jordie is that she's going to give her teammates a concussion if she doesn't lighten up with the double taps.

 

[GameTime]

Shouldn't that be, "Fuggedaboudit"?

But...point taken.

The passes to phantom teammates last night had me reaching for the Maalox.

That may have been the worst pass I have ever seen, as a fan or player....No one was there, or was going to be there.....I assume she was passing to open her, but man, forget about it.

 

[37620VOL]

The TO problem is ...

60% stupid decisions / lack of awareness (including charges)
30% post players not doing their part to receive the entry pass
10% acceptable or effort-type turnovers

So 90% of our turnovers are avoidable. On the 60%, they just need to slow down and take care of the ball. It's not that hard to get a decent shot without taking undue risk. The goal should be to get a "good shot" (defined as a 2 pointer you can make 50% of the time or a 3 pointer you can make 30% of the time) on EVERY possession.

Passive post players drive me nuts. Be aggressive about receiving the entry pass. Our posts need to watch some Grant Williams film.

 

[gule]

I hope TK was watching the 7’er on the men’s team last night. He has an honest to God hook shot! Lol

 

[Chippo]

After considerable thought, I'm going to break my own rule and take an individual player to task. I don't do ths lightly but it's been eating at me for a couple of weeks now. So here goes.

I have formed a love/hate relationship with Jordan Horston. When she is good she is so very very good. When she is bad she is a turnover looking for a place to happen. To me, the worst part is that it appears many of her turnovers are the result of inattention, laziness, or massive brain farts. It's inexplicable...and inexcusable, in my opinion. I've lost count of the times she has driven headlong into a mass of players in a seemingly heroic attempt to score while failing to look for and identify an open player with a much better opportunity to score. Is this a heroic or a very selfish act? I think it's selfish "hero ball." Your mileage may vary.

I'm to the point that I think she needs some bench time to get her head in the game. Maybe that would help? Maybe not.

*rant off*

20 laps around TBA, after a hard practice
might work wonders.

 

[VolBall09]

In a lot of game turnovers haven't meant as much as they did last night because we were close to forcing as many as we were committing. In SEC play we are now consistently giving up more shots than we are getting a bad place to be with the best teams coming up. Last night only 6 bama turnovers to our 20 resulted in 69 shots for them and only 55 for us. Even though we shot 47 percent to their 36 because of all the turnovers and all the additional shots they got the game turned in to what happened. This sadly has become the main concern giving up more shots than they are attempting on offense. We don't seem to be very good at forcing turnovers thus when we commit so many it allows the other team way to many shot attempts over what we get. You turn that around they get 55 and we get 69 we win this game by 20 points or more. That is how much the turnovers and allowing extra shots meant in this game. Almost got us beat needed a miracle shot to save us.

In short, we are making ourselves play way more defense than we need to be.

 

[glv98]

20 laps around TBA, after a hard practice
might work wonders.

I never understand punishment such as running for turnovers (and yes, I know Barnes, a way better coach than me is reported to use bleacher running for tos.) This implies they are intentional or "naughty" and so are fixable by administering pain.

Does anyone think any player wants to go out there and look bad? Even if they cared nothing about the team, these elite, pampered athletes have enough ego not to want to screw up on TV. Our plague of turnovers looks more to me like a young team (espec Horston) who is struggling with decision making and the fact that things that worked for her in high school don't work anymore. Experience, watching film, and teaching should take care of this, not wearing legs out in the middle of an already long season.

All that said, if there is not significant improvement by tourney time and certainly next year, maybe the player, despite lofty recruit rankings, just doesn't have the ability to have a good handle on this level. We've seen that sad movie before.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I never understand punishment such as running for turnovers (and yes, I know Barnes, a way better coach than me is reported to use bleacher running for tos.) This implies they are intentional or "naughty" and so are fixable by administering pain.

Does anyone think any player wants to go out there and look bad? Even if they cared nothing about the team, these elite, pampered athletes have enough ego not to want to screw up on TV. Our plague of turnovers looks more to me like a young team (espec Horston) who is struggling with decision making and the fact that things that worked for her in high school don't work anymore. Experience, watching film, and teaching should take care of this, not wearing legs out in the middle of an already long season.

All that said, if there is not significant improvement by tourney time and certainly next year, maybe the player, despite lofty recruit rankings, just doesn't have the ability to have a good handle on this level. We've seen that sad movie before.

Freshman become Sophomores

 

[VolBall09]

I never understand punishment such as running for turnovers (and yes, I know Barnes, a way better coach than me is reported to use bleacher running for tos.) This implies they are intentional or "naughty" and so are fixable by administering pain.

Does anyone think any player wants to go out there and look bad? Even if they cared nothing about the team, these elite, pampered athletes have enough ego not to want to screw up on TV. Our plague of turnovers looks more to me like a young team (espec Horston) who is struggling with decision making and the fact that things that worked for her in high school don't work anymore. Experience, watching film, and teaching should take care of this, not wearing legs out in the middle of an already long season.

All that said, if there is not significant improvement by tourney time and certainly next year, maybe the player, despite lofty recruit rankings, just doesn't have the ability to have a good handle on this level. We've seen that sad movie before.

Turnovers are mental mistakes. When you run, you have time to think. Plus, the better your conditioning the fewer mental lapses you have anyhow. As the legs go, so does the brain.

 

[37620VOL]

I never understand punishment such as running for turnovers (and yes, I know Barnes, a way better coach than me is reported to use bleacher running for tos.) This implies they are intentional or "naughty" and so are fixable by administering pain.

I guess it is punishment but how else do call out the proper amount of attention to the TO problem and affect player behavior? We're halfway through the season, there are no more freshmen excuses, and you've already been coaching for months on the issues that are causing the TOs. You have to do something to let the team know how important this is.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I guess it is punishment but how else do call out the proper amount of attention to the TO problem and affect player behavior? We're halfway through the season, there are no more freshmen excuses, and you've already been coaching for months on the issues that are causing the TOs. You have to do something to let the team know how important this is.

The only punishment I give my kids for turnovers is to have to sit next to me and get an earful for the next few minutes

There are drills for BH turnovers....I run what I call the gauntlet. I create a 12 foot lane BL to BL with blue tape and put four defenders in the lane one in the initial paint, one arc to HC, one HC to arc and one at the far end paint then time the BHers making a complete run Bl to Bl and back,,,noting how infractions happen (dribble off foot, defender knocking ball away, stepping outside of the line, etc). It gives the girls a way to measure their BH skills while at the same time teaching the defenders open court defense. As they get better at BHing I make the lane 11 ft, 10 ft, etc.

 

[glv98]

The only punishment I give my kids for turnovers is to have to sit next to me and get an earful for the next few minutes

Now THAT is punishment! Cruel and unusual I'd say.

Seriously, I just don't believe punishment for anything that is not intentional is ever effective. I'm sure frustrated coaches want to do something quick and public to address a turnover problem, but IMO the problem really gets addressed thru game experience, film watching, drills and skills development. And takes time, especially if as with the LVs, the turnovers are mostly from poor situational decision making from young players.

I do agree with sitting a turnover prone player to provide immediate coaching; this is what you did in that situation, this is what you should have done.

 

[krichunaka]

I would think maybe reevaluate when she is a Sophomore. For these really gifted kids their athleticism lets them develop perspectives/habits in high school that don’t translate to college. She’s probably still figuring that out. She passes up an awful lot of open shots to be selfish from my seat. If anything she is looking for a highlight assist which I’m sure her teammates appreciate. Hah!
I really do think she will be an AA for us before she leaves.

Jordan Houston is incredible, and yes, likely to make All-American. And, I agree that she displays not the first selfish inclination. She just needs to settle in and improve, and most-specifically with her mid-range, pull up game. Which ironically means, take more shots!
As CoachJumper mentioned, you can sit a player and have a nice little chat, a very effective short term strategy. But, we are approaching the survive-and-advance point - winning time - so better continue to work on it in practice.
It keeps coming back to Zaay Green, and the primary reason (I think) Coach Kellie is doing a remarkable job under adverse conditions. If Jordan sits, Rae, or Jessie is the likely replacement. Fine. But, if any combination of two of the starting three (wings guards) have to sit, things are a bit more precarious. Whereas if we have Zaay, those little chats can be extended for more effect while we play several combinations for more minutes.
Anyhow, regardless of what happens tonight, this team is trending toward long term excellence.

 

[Chippo]

Turnovers are mental mistakes. When you run, you have time to think. Plus, the better your conditioning the fewer mental lapses you have anyhow. As the legs go, so does the brain.

Back in the 1960' s when I played j v baseball
the coach had us to run to get us in shape legs, wind, stamina etc. Coach Jumper knows
more about getting a player in shape than I do.

 

[Coach Jumper]

Back in the 1960' s when I played j v baseball
the coach had us to run to get us in shape legs, wind, stamina etc. Coach Jumper knows
more about getting a player in shape than I do.

If and when I do use running for punishment it is while dribbling...suicides, laps,,,etc.

 

[lvocd]

I think Kellie has been hesitant to crack down hard on Jordan’s turnovers because she likely hasn’t wanted to risk making her overthink her every move and become tentative. We all probably remember how players in recent years started playing tentatively, overthinking, then becoming paralyzed. I think Kellie has been willing, up to now, to give away turnovers if it kept Jordan’s mind free to mix it up and try things like she’s naturally, spontaneously inclined to try.

But I have a feeling that last night’s game will prove to have been the beginning of the end — if not THE end — to that experiment. I could see Kellie taking a modified “tough love” approach, perhaps even playing with starting lineups at bit — maybe. Or something. I don’t think Kellie wants to risk breaking anyone’s spirit, but clearly she’s going to have to figure out SOME way to reduce our turnovers.

I just think we can all be grateful that this level of exposure of our greatest weaknesses happened in a non-conference game. This can help us as we move forward. I just wish there were, literally, some overnight fix so we could have that stuff cleaned up for LSU. Unfortunately, it’s going to take a little longer than that.

 

[creekdipper]

A UCONN poster made a good observation...much as I hate to give them credit...that Horston would have benefited getting to start her career playing behind a starter instead of being thrown into the fire immediately (due to our needs). He pointed to examples on their team where a talented pkayer comes in and then takes over the starting role after adjusting to the speed of the college game. Of course, she and Key are getting an early education. The trick is to get the experience while shedding the bad habits.

This year, we don't have the luxury of apprenticeships for the best freshmen. That will change with future classes of incoming talent.

Getting immediate playing time has its draw backs.

I do wish someone would ask about Emily and Jaiden's lack of opportunities to get the scoop.

 

[StrangeVol]

A UCONN poster made a good observation...much as I hate to give them credit...that Horston would have benefited getting to start her career playing behind a starter instead of being thrown into the fire immediately (due to our needs). He pointed to examples on their team where a talented pkayer comes in and then takes over the starting role after adjusting to the speed of the college game. Of course, she and Key are getting an early education. The trick is to get the experience while shedding the bad habits.

This year, we don't have the luxury of apprenticeships for the best freshmen. That will change with future classes of incoming talent.

Getting immediate playing time has its draw backs.

I do wish someone would ask about Emily and Jaiden's lack of opportunities to get the scoop.

I do too. I'd love to see more of Jaiden and a LOT less of KK. From the little I've seen of Emily she looks decent for a freshman and no doubt could benefit from more live-fire experience. How much worse than KK can she be?

 

[lvocd]

A UCONN poster made a good observation...much as I hate to give them credit...that Horston would have benefited getting to start her career playing behind a starter instead of being thrown into the fire immediately (due to our needs). He pointed to examples on their team where a talented pkayer comes in and then takes over the starting role after adjusting to the speed of the college game. Of course, she and Key are getting an early education. The trick is to get the experience while shedding the bad habits.

This year, we don't have the luxury of apprenticeships for the best freshmen. That will change with future classes of incoming talent.

Getting immediate playing time has its draw backs.

I do wish someone would ask about Emily and Jaiden's lack of opportunities to get the scoop.

I agree with that 100%. Losing Evina and Zaay hurt us for this season. I feel like next season is going to be a lot different with Jaz, Jordan and Zaay coming back stronger and more experienced. Of course, Zaay's "experience" is in being a spectator this season, which isn't altogether a bad thing. She has probably never in all her playing years been an observer of the game and how BOTH teams are playing it. This will be so good for Green for next season!