Lady Vols - Turnovers Again

#26
#26
glv98 said:
IMO, the turnovers are a combo of indecision, bad decision, players with really poor hands, and a few careless, such as stepping on the baseline in the potential game winning sequence. A sharper offense, a tighter, more coherent rotation, and experience for the new players should help alot. If we're still turning it over at this clip at midseason, this is a coaching issue.
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I downloaded the turnovers and then rewatched the game looking for the times the TO's were listed at
Here it is:
120620 WVA turnovers.jpg
 
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#27
#27
Tells me Davis and Horston were a combo turnover machine down the stretch. A familiar problem.

To be fair, Walker and Marta were a combo turnover machine to start the game.
 
#29
#29
Putbacks said:
Excessive turnovers, poor shot selection, easy misses around the basket, erratic offensive decision, poor spacing etc. are all the results from too much casualness and deficient discipline.
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The problem with this is that the team still has a good amount of talent on it, but if recruiting declines, the problems will become even worse. Davis and Horston were obviously highly rated coming out of HS, and Burrell is certainly exceeding expectations, but it's not like WVU is a top 25 team, or even receiving votes. They play Baylor next, who has not impressed this season thus far, so maybe WVU is better than the "experts" think.

It was really nice to see the team come back in Q4, but obviously disheartening to see them fall short in OT. I get that we have to give Kellie a chance with recruiting, but thus far, it's been underwhelming, and even if she's a better HC than Holly, a dramatic drop in talent will result in us falling even further.
 
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#30
#30
Coach Jumper said:
Jordan had one turnover in the second half
she also had 5 assists
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2. One w about 3 mins, one in O.T. But whatever, she played well in other areas, some of the best D I've ever seen her play. The thing about Jordan H is she'll either make a highlight reel assist or a t.o. And she's still a bit indecisive, she overdribbles at the point then forces something. I'm sure she'll get better with the ball but right now I wish we could put her in a position to score more, handle less.
 
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#31
#31
mikey2smart said:
Those of you complaining of turnovers have either never played, never coached or both! If you did, you know turnovers are apart of the game. The things that matter are the type of turnovers and the times that they are happening.

Are the live ball or dead ball? Was it in transition trying to make a play or in the half court force feeding a particular player? How many points does the other team get from them?

Long story short, these are people not robots. They will make mistakes. Its the ones at the end of regulation that we need to clean up the most. Those are the ones that cost wins.
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Most of the turnovers were lackluster passing or lackadaisical dribbling and not holding on to the ball on rebounds. They were also playing against a high octane team. Those kinds of teams can cause difficulties. I hope we learned something from this loss. You also need to have your top 5 players who get the bulk of the playing time. This builds consistency. Down the stretch we had a pretty good lineup on the floor. You also need a consistent point to QB your team. This can eliminate a lot of turnovers.
 
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#32
#32
teacherdean said:
Most of the turnovers were lackluster passing or lackadaisical dribbling and not holding on to the ball on rebounds. They were also playing against a high octane team. Those kinds of teams can cause difficulties. I hope we learned something from this loss. You also need to have your top 5 players who get the bulk of the playing time. This builds consistency. Down the stretch we had a pretty good lineup on the floor. You also need a consistent point to QB your team. This can eliminate a lot of turnovers.
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Last year Rae come off the bench to provide a spark...I get that
But the very players she sparked are sitting on the pine while (essentially) 3 rookies are starting...I don't get that.
 
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#33
#33
JohnnyPayne said:
To be fair, they also played an overtime, so it’s not 20 turnovers in 40 minutes.
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Well why don't you be fair, she is not the coach to carry us to the level we once was. She sits on the bench and never uses a timeout while they continue to wheel and deal on the offensive end of the floor. Throwing up a three ten seconds in the shot clock without even one pass is ridiculous. They are all guilty, I saw Davis look inside twice with our girl open and step back and miss a three pointer. She does not demand that they take care of the basketball, twice today turnovers on a simple inbound pass. Horston trying to put on a clinic when she could be the best player on the floor. After watching the first two games, I could see and even posted that we would loose to the first average team that we played. There was no comparison with our players compared to theirs. I have not seen anything any better than what Warlick did, which was nothing. When they refuse to hire an elite coach, then we will NEVER be an elite team again.
 
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#34
#34
allenfan1 said:
Well why don't you be fair, she is not the coach to carry us to the level we once was. She sits on the bench and never uses a timeout while they continue to wheel and deal on the offensive end of the floor. Throwing up a three ten seconds in the shot clock without even one pass is ridiculous. They are all guilty, I saw Davis look inside twice with our girl open and step back and miss a three pointer. She does not demand that they take care of the basketball, twice today turnovers on a simple inbound pass. Horston trying to put on a clinic when she could be the best player on the floor. After watching the first two games, I could see and even posted that we would loose to the first average team that we played. There was no comparison with our players compared to theirs. I have not seen anything any better than what Warlick did, which was nothing. When they refuse to hire an elite coach, then we will NEVER be an elite team again.
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Not in for the slow rebuild then are ya? We all grieve at different rates but my anger and outrage over the LVs not being an elite program anymore went by a long time ago. Call it a low bar, but I'm just looking for some sign of improvement beyond an average, midpack SEC team. Today could have been, should have been a step in that direction but wasn't ultimately.

Call me a sunshine pumper, but I still think this team has some pieces, some possibilities. It will take a solid coaching job though, so we'll see if you're right that KJH is not capable of that. Sure hope not.
 
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#35
#35
Coach Jumper said:
Last year Rae come off the bench to provide a spark...I get that
But the very players she sparked are sitting on the pine while (essentially) 3 rookies are starting...I don't get that.
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At this point it is a little hard to figure out KJH’s ideology. I am sure that she believes that the five starters are her best five to start the game. I am seeing the same pattern she had at Mo.State of playing multiple lineups using two, and sometimes three, different point guards. I don’t know if that system will work at the power 5 level.
 
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#36
#36
glv98 said:
Not in for the slow rebuild then are ya? We all grieve at different rates but my anger and outrage over the LVs not being an elite program anymore went by a long time ago. Call it a low bar, but I'm just looking for some sign of improvement beyond an average, midpack SEC team. Today could have been, should have been a step in that direction but wasn't ultimately.

Call me a sunshine pumper, but I still think this team has some pieces, some possibilities. It will take a solid coaching job though, so we'll see if you're right that KJH is not capable of that. Sure hope not.
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The problem for me is that the Kellie Harper hire shows that the administration wasn't willing to invest in bringing the women's program back up. Texas is an example of a team that was willing. They paid big bucks to get Vic Schaefer, and Texas' program history pales in comparison to the LV's history...but they were still willing to pay the price. When you shop for a coach at the Dollar Store, you shouldn't be surprised when you get what you paid for.
 
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#37
#37
teacherdean said:
At this point it is a little hard to figure out KJH’s ideology. I am sure that she believes that the five starters are her best five to start the game. I am seeing the same pattern she had at Mo.State of playing multiple lineups using two, and sometimes three, different point guards. I don’t know if that system will work at the power 5 level.
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It won't
 
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#38
#38
Amb3096 said:
The problem for me is that the Kellie Harper hire shows that the administration wasn't willing to invest in bringing the women's program back up. Texas is an example of a team that was willing. They paid big bucks to get Vic Schaefer, and Texas' program history pales in comparison to the LV's history...but they were still willing to pay the price. When you shop for a coach at the Dollar Store, you shouldn't be surprised when you get what you paid for.
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This. Exactly.
 
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#41
#41
We will never win big with this staff! This is who we are now! We have a football first AD and we can’t even get that right. All of Fulmers energy will be put into fixing football and the LV’s are and will be an afterthought. I agree that football is what keeps everything else going, but we could afford a quality coach. Buuuuuut, the biggest problem is that the powers that be and a good majority of the fanbase think we need a former player to be the coach. In that sense, I think they chose the wrong former player. Kara Lawson is who they should have gone with if they HAD to have a former player. She will win big at Duke. We will be looking for a new coach in 3-4 years. So tired of trying to make the bargain basement hire and hoping for the best. We got lucky with Barnes, but he was let go by Texas, but he had something that none of the other coaches that Fulmer has hired have....he was a proven winner and program builder. I’m never going to stop loving my Vols and Lady Vols, but the future looks pretty bleak.
 
#42
#42
Amb3096 said:
The problem for me is that the Kellie Harper hire shows that the administration wasn't willing to invest in bringing the women's program back up. Texas is an example of a team that was willing. They paid big bucks to get Vic Schaefer, and Texas' program history pales in comparison to the LV's history...but they were still willing to pay the price. When you shop for a coach at the Dollar Store, you shouldn't be surprised when you get what you paid for.
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But this is old news. Yes, we did not apparently go for an established elite coach, or none were interested. So instead, we got a beloved homegirl who has been a middling to good coach and probably on her last run at becoming elite. You yourself made the observation a long time ago that KJH would have to follow the Vic Schaefer MS model, do more with lesser players and build up. I'm also aware some feel Harper will not be capable of pulling that off.

So that's why my bar is so low, and I'm not ashamed of it. I just want to see some improvement and its way too early for me to say there hasn't been any. Heck, just the way Rae is playing will keep me interested for now. So no, we aren't near elite. Just trying for a nice road win. I thought we knew this coming into the season.
 
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#43
#43
Guys, a turnover is a turnover regardless of why.

Any team that averages in the high teens in turnovers ain't doing their job, period. That is a formula for disaster.

If your team gives up 18-20 turnovers, I would be willing to bet you will lose that game.
 
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#44
#44
glv98 said:
But this is old news. Yes, we did not apparently go for an established elite coach, or none were interested. So instead, we got a beloved homegirl who has been a middling to good coach and probably on her last run at becoming elite. You yourself made the observation a long time ago that KJH would have to follow the Vic Schaefer MS model, do more with lesser players and build up. I'm also aware some feel Harper will not be capable of pulling that off.

So that's why my bar is so low, and I'm not ashamed of it. I just want to see some improvement and its way too early for me to say there hasn't been any. Heck, just the way Rae is playing will keep me interested for now. So no, we aren't near elite. Just trying for a nice road win. I thought we knew this coming into the season.
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Kellie wasn't my 1st (or 2nd, 3rd, 10th or 20th) pick for HC, but I was willing to see how she'd do. I think I've seen enough to conclude that she just doesn't have it. She loses to teams that are decently good, and gets blown away by the very good teams. Until she can start winning some games against teams like WV or a rebuilding Texas team with some good players (but an incomplete roster by skillset), then I have little reason to have faith in her abilities.
 
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#45
#45
Amb3096 said:
I think I've seen enough to conclude that she just doesn't have it.
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Much as I respect your opinion and much as I fear you may be right, I don't think she's had quite enough time with her own players. I give her till early in the SEC season to show some tangible improvement. We'll know it if/when we see it. I still think this team has some modest possibilities in that direction. We shall see.
 
#46
#46
glv98 said:
Much as I respect your opinion and much as I fear you may be right, I don't think she's had quite enough time with her own players. I give her till early in the SEC season to show some tangible improvement. We'll know it if/when we see it. I still think this team has some modest possibilities in that direction. We shall see.
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The reason I'm down on her is because it's doesn't get easier next year. Assuming Rennia, KK and Green all leave...then what does she have? Some middle of the road freshmen recruits and Emily Saunders as her backup post? I know some on here think that the assortment of '21 recruits ranked between 50-150 will bring Tennessee back to the FF next season when Rennia couldn't. I personally think it gets harder after this year, so if she can't pick up some big wins with the roster she has now, I don't see her doing it when the team takes a talent hit next season. She needs to mine the transfer portal hard, and this time settle for more than some average mid-major players.
 
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#47
#47
Amb3096 said:
if she can't pick up some big wins with the roster she has now, I don't see her doing it when the team takes a talent hit next season.
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Again, the difference is I haven't closed the door on picking up any good wins on the basis of these three games. LOL, I have so little hope in my life right now, can't I please have some for the LVs for a few more games?
Amb3096 said:
She needs to mine the transfer portal hard, and this time settle for more than some average mid-major players.
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Not sure its a matter of KJH settling for players as convincing players to settle for us. Pretty sure she didn't turn away any better players than the ones we ended up with.
 
#48
#48
glv98 said:
Not sure its a matter of KJH settling for players as convincing players to settle for us. Pretty sure she didn't turn away any better players than the ones we ended up with.
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Other "new" high profile coaches don't seem to be having that problem...
 
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