Learn From The Fall of Rome?

#2
#2
“One of the concerns is obviously we are a great country but we face major sustainability challenges that we are not taking seriously enough,” said Mr Walker, who was appointed during the Clinton administration to the post, which carries a 15-year term.
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think this guy had the same concerns during the Clinton Administration?

I like how he smoothly incorporates the bridge collapse in Minnesota to his "crumbling US empire" theme.
 
#4
#4
Never knew those appointed in certain administrations automatically become biased sources of info. If that is the case, is there anyone worthy of unbiased opinions?
 
#5
#5
never said he was biased, I was just wondering if he had the same "US::Roman Empire" concerns during the Clinton Administration. Regardless, I find the comparison to the Roman Empire deeply flawed.
 
#6
#6
Deeply flawed? Care to elaborate?

And who is to say he didn't have the same concerns then? Considering conditions of the nation are far different than they were then, he may have seen recent events that drew him to his conclusion.

Why is everything all about Clinton?
 
#7
#7
very revolutionary theory at work there. In my reading all great empires have lasted forever and I believe the US to be on the same path. We'll be inducted into the Hall of Fame and whisked away to that great resting place in the sky.
 
#9
#9
CSpindizzy said:
Deeply flawed? Care to elaborate?
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for one, our economy isn't based on slave labor.

two, women can vote in the US, as well as other minorities, regardless of their social status, ethnicity or religion.

three, we're not expansionist in nature, at least not in the way the Roman Empire was.

four, we don't feed our political dissidents to lions nor do we lock them in mortal combat with highly trained gladiators.

If there's any modern political model that can be compared to the Roman Empire, it's the former Soviet Union.
 
#10
#10
So unless every single aspect between two compared items matches you don't think there is a worthwhile level to compare to?
 
#11
#11
no, cspin, I think comparing the US to the Roman Empire is a waste of time. I don't believe that they're comparable on any level.
 
#12
#12
Nothing on ANY level? But yet you say the USSR is comparable. They don't pass your little test above but yet they compare and the US does not.
 
#13
#13
Here is his quote:

“declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government”

So in these items above, there are no comparisons between the US and the Roman Empire?
 
#14
#14
The are comparisons but do they really tell anything about the potential collapse of the US?

I can find parallels between Hitler and Gandhi but does it really inform us.
 
#15
#15
In those particular areas yes it does. Going with his point, he only calls for paying attention to those particular areas or we could also go the way of historical empires.

My guess is a guy who has worked for some of the largest consulting firms and with his credentials has a little more credibility and background than you give him credit for. Considering he's basically touting a right-wing viewpoint, I'm quite surprised those on the same side of the fence are pouncing on him.
 
#16
#16
I'm not trashing the guy or his credentials. I just find the analogy more tired than anything. It's shown up time and time again when people see "decline" in its various forms. Hundreds of civilizations have declined for various reasons - there are parallels between them but true distinctions as well. In other words, Rome is overplayed.

No doubt we will go the way of historical empires and there will be parallels to those empires but more likely the reasons will be unique and contextual.

The problems he points out are issues in and of themselves - tying them to the decline of ancient Rome does very little to add to our understanding either of the issues or their importance IMHO.
 
#17
#17
Let's just keep our heads in the sand, it seems to have worked so far.
 
#18
#18
I think you're overstating his point. You're saying he's tying the two a little more than he really is. With just a few issues he is saying how both entities have misused and abused themselves in those areas. He does not deny other factors. He only points out both have lead to some downward turns in both entities and is speaking more from a learning our lessons from history rather than saying we are Rome and are doing the exact same things.

People use historical comparisons all the time in trying to sway opinion. Being someone in business you would be the last person I'd think would be so quick to shoot this down. He's from the business community and is using his firsthand knowledge and history to say if we're not careful with these few items we're headed for irreparable harm.

Frankly he's the first one in some time to actually use substance to the argument rather than hyperbole and religion to tell his point.
 
#19
#19
CSpindizzy said:
I think you're overstating his point. You're saying he's tying the two a little more than he really is. With just a few issues he is saying how both entities have misused and abused themselves in those areas. He does not deny other factors. He only points out both have lead to some downward turns in both entities and is speaking more from a learning our lessons from history rather than saying we are Rome and are doing the exact same things.

People use historical comparisons all the time in trying to sway opinion. Being someone in business you would be the last person I'd think would be so quick to shoot this down. He's from the business community and is using his firsthand knowledge and history to say if we're not careful with these few items we're headed for irreparable harm.

Frankly he's the first one in some time to actually use substance to the argument rather than hyperbole and religion to tell his point.
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I simply don't see the value of his comparison. There are countless lessons from history that apply. To me, the analogy adds nothing and risks overshadowing the very issues he brings up. It's cliche'

If it works for you or anyone else, that's fine. Just stating my opinion.
 
#20
#20
Obviously it's enough to bring your analysis to the table. For something that amounts to nothing and deemed cliche' you have definitely given it quite a bit of thought to respond. Yes, there are countless lessons that apply. Someone who is very involved in government and analysis has offered quite logical points beyond the norm of what this example is used for.

It's also meaningless to just brush these issues off as trvial. Every issue he brings up is major. The fact that he says it has happened to a major power in history is secondary. It's humorous to see how you've just passed on his point and focused on what he did not give as his focus of concern. Obviously it served his purpose because it received a lot of attention today among blogs and media. Cliche' or not, it served its purpose.
 
#21
#21
CSpindizzy said:
Obviously it's enough to bring your analysis to the table. For something that amounts to nothing and deemed cliche' you have definitely given it quite a bit of thought to respond. Yes, there are countless lessons that apply. Someone who is very involved in government and analysis has offered quite logical points beyond the norm of what this example is used for.

It's also meaningless to just brush these issues off as trvial. Every issue he brings up is major. The fact that he says it has happened to a major power in history is secondary. It's humorous to see how you've just passed on his point and focused on what he did not give as his focus of concern. Obviously it served his purpose because it received a lot of attention today among blogs and media. Cliche' or not, it served its purpose.
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:blink:

I've responded because my opinion keeps getting challenged and mis-stated. If this post doesn't clear up my view for you then it will never be clear.

I haven't brushed off the issues as trivial. You'll see I've noted that the issues are valid but the analogy is weak and adds nothing to the discussion. In my view, it distracts from the issues. They stand alone.

I've said that time and time again yet it keeps getting twisted into some disagreement with the author over the issues he raises. I simply made a comment about the analogy and it becomes a federal case.

If comparing us to Rome helps you grasp the significance of the issues then that's fine. Seriously.
 
#22
#22
Off topic but, what happened to the would you vote for an athiest for president thread?
 
#23
#23
Probably pulled because people just cannot handle discussing religion without making it personal.
 
#24
#24
Yea I went to sleep last night and it was up but oh well. I like discussing religion. I don't try to change someone's beliefs but try to understand where they are coming from. It's not like someone is going to change my beliefs nor do I expect to change anyone's beliefs.
 
#25
#25
Like I said on that topic, talk about abortion and religion at your own peril. It usually results in some serious arguments. Note many wars fought in the name of religion. I have some very opinionated views on other religions but in the end, those who follow them are accountable themselves for their choices. I've got good friends who are believers in religions I think are flat out wrong. I have good friends who are members of denominations within Christianity I disagree with. But what good does it do me or my faith to sit there and say they're heathens, going to hell, etc.? It's an issue I have with many Christians who are quickly judgmental on others' views and do nothing but slam doors in people's faces. Great way to speak for a message of hope.
 
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