Left Out of D-Day Events, Queen Elizabeth Is Fuming

#27
#27
rjd970 said:
And this is in the running for the most misguided post ever. Completely missed the point of what I was saying.

I simply meant there were other British sectors that she could visit for these ceremonies. She is, afterall, British. And I'm not ignoring anything. But the simple fact of the matter is without us there is no way the Western front gets opened, and I hardly think that the British army would have accomplished much anyway with Montgomery as there best general. All the allies contributed, sure, but is there any doubt that other than the soviets, we contributed more than anybody else to ultimate victory Europe?
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The second front rushed the end of the war.... Russia would have won the war in Europe on their own.
 
#28
#28
I agree completely with your friend. All vital manufacturing was in the East in Siberia.

Hitler's infatuation with taking cities instead of rich oil reserves was assinine at best.

Although, I do have to the say, in terms of opening a second front, Sicily and the invasion of Italy did help the Russian cause at Kursk because Hitler took all of his new top line tanks out and moved them to Italy.

The only thing our front did was end the war 2 or 3 years early.
 
#29
#29
JTrainDavis said:
IMO the Germans had hit their high water mark in the east by the time the french front was opened.
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+1

Every one points to Poland as a crushing victory that the world has never seen before.

The Poles held out for the longest time and in the end Russia ended up getting the land Germany had won.
 
#30
#30
rjd970 said:
And the magnitude of our manufacturing capabilities. We were spitting out Sherman's and Bomber's like we did with Chevy's and Ford's.....and we could maintain it for much longer than any of our enemies.

...not to take away from the individual and amazing heroism and accomplishments from our veterens, but I have always maintained that our industrial base is what really won victories in Europe and the Pacific. It simply just couldn't be overcome.
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Maybe it is just me, but who flew and drove the tanks?

:blink:

Of course our manufacturing base was a part of victory, we spat out 55,000 shermans to 5,000 German tanks of all types.

The vet had to sit in the Ronson Lighter because if his tank got hit he and his crew would be dead.

Give more credit to the Vet that was in an outclassed machine.
 
#31
#31
OrangeEmpire said:
I agree completely with your friend. All vital manufacturing was in the East in Siberia.

Hitler's infatuation with taking cities instead of rich oil reserves was assinine at best.

Although, I do have to the say, in terms of opening a second front, Sicily and the invasion of Italy did help the Russian cause at Kursk because Hitler took all of his new top line tanks out and moved them to Italy.

The only thing our front did was end the war 2 or 3 years early.
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I agree it served to speed up the victory but do you not think that a prolonged slugfest with the Germans, able to focus all their resources on the eastern front, would have severely crippled the Russians? I believe Russia would have come victorious but would not have emerged from the war as the power they were before. In short they would have been extremely weakened and would not have been in the same position of power they were had we not forced Hitler to divert resources throughout western Europe and Africa. This was my source of disagreement in the argument. He was of the opinion they would have emerged from that war about the same had we entered or not. This is where I disagree.
 
#32
#32
should we have just listened to Patton and not let them emerge at all? :question:
 
#33
#33
utvolpj said:
should we have just listened to Patton and not let them emerge at all? :question:
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Knowing what we know now, maybe. It would have been a slugfest of epic proportions and I don't believe their people had the stomach for another 2 to 4 year war. I certainly know our country didn't, but they were the greatest generation, I imagine they would have answered the call if it came.
 
#34
#34
KB5252 said:
I agree it served to speed up the victory but do you not think that a prolonged slugfest with the Germans, able to focus all their resources on the eastern front, would have severely crippled the Russians? I believe Russia would have come victorious but would not have emerged from the war as the power they were before. In short they would have been extremely weakened and would not have been in the same position of power they were had we not forced Hitler to divert resources throughout western Europe and Africa. This was my source of disagreement in the argument. He was of the opinion they would have emerged from that war about the same had we entered or not. This is where I disagree.
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I don't think Normandy accomplished this......

Sicily and Italy diverted precious tanks from the Eastern front.

Again, I think Hitler's infauation with cities doomed the Germans to failure.
 
#36
#36
OrangeEmpire said:
I don't think Normandy accomplished this......

Sicily and Italy diverted precious tanks from the Eastern front.

Again, I think Hitler's infauation with cities doomed the Germans to failure.
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Normandy didn't accomplish what?

I think Hitler had it in his head that if he hit the cities hard enough he would break the will of the people to fight. It was certainly a huge mistake. I believe he made unsuccessful attempts trying to cripple energy and production facilities and then gave up on it. It certainly didn't help him any that his mind started to cave in under the pressure of fighting 3 superpowers on different fronts.
 
#37
#37
KB5252 said:
Normandy didn't accomplish what?

I think Hitler had it in his head that if he hit the cities hard enough he would break the will of the people to fight. It was certainly a huge mistake. I believe he made unsuccessful attempts trying to cripple energy and production facilities and then gave up on it. It certainly didn't help him any that his mind started to cave in under the pressure of fighting 3 superpowers on different fronts.
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I argue that Sicily and Italy were more important than Normandy and the breakthrough to Germany.

I hold firm, that Russia took the brunt of the German assault and the Russian's won the war in Europe.

Hitler diverting tanks and men from Kursk to Italy allowed the Russians to open the door to victory in Europe.
 
#38
#38
OrangeEmpire said:
I argue that Sicily and Italy were more important than Normandy and the breakthrough to Germany.

I hold firm, that Russia took the brunt of the German assault and the Russian's won the war in Europe.

Hitler diverting tanks and men from Kursk to Italy allowed the Russians to open the door to victory in Europe.
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I don't dispute any of this, I only meant to point out that the presence of the US and British on the eastern front took away valuable resources Hitler could have used to inflict even more damage in Russia. I don't think it would have been enough but these resources would have proven to inflict more damage and further crippled the country. Russia would have emerged much less powerful after the war had it shaken out this way.
 
#39
#39
KB5252 said:
I don't dispute any of this, I only meant to point out that the presence of the US and British on the eastern front took away valuable resources Hitler could have used to inflict even more damage in Russia. I don't think it would have been enough but these resources would have proven to inflict more damage and further crippled the country. Russia would have emerged much less powerful after the war had it shaken out this way.
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I dunno...... I mean they took over 30 million dead and came out a superpower.

:dunno:
 
#40
#40
OrangeEmpire said:
I dunno...... I mean they took over 30 million dead and came out a superpower.

:dunno:
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But they were certainly on the brink a couple of times on the eastern front. The Russians were on their heels on more than one occasion, in many cases supplies were much lower for the Russians than they were for the Germans. Things could have taken a much uglier swing for the Russians had Hitler been able to bring more power to bear on Russia. How much more could Russia have taken before they would have been severely crippled? I don't know but certainly more than 30 million would have been lost.
 
#41
#41
KB5252 said:
But they were certainly on the brink a couple of times on the eastern front. The Russians were on their heels on more than one occasion, in many cases supplies were much lower for the Russians than they were for the Germans. Things could have taken a much uglier swing for the Russians had Hitler been able to bring more power to bear on Russia. How much more could Russia have taken before they would have been severely crippled? I don't know but certainly more than 30 million would have been lost.
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Absolutely, Stalin didn't even believe that Hilter would break the truce. If I recall correclty, he actually had two people executed because they told Stalin directly the Germans were invading.

I think the Russians for in for the long haul once the Russian propaganda machine was in full swing showing and telling the citizens about the German death squads and such.

The Eastern Front is some of the nastiest fighting the world will ever see.

I think Kursk was the key to the Eastern Front.

If Zhukov had not been given time to prepare defenses and Hitler not taken tanks and men away from Manstein, I believe the German attack would have succeeded.

Again, Hilter was his own worst enemy.
 
#42
#42
utvolpj said:
should we have just listened to Patton and not let them emerge at all? :question:
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I'll agree with this.

The USSR was on the brink of a revolution when Germany entered. Understand that when the Germans rolled in, they were greeted as liberators by the populace who looked forward to greater freedom under Hitler. Had Hitler not ordered the deportation of the few remaining Jews and civic leaders to be executed (which triggered partisan movements against the Germans), it would have been possible to eliminate Bolshevism.
 
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