Lets look out our situation

#1

CountVolcula

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#1
but in a different way

I consistently see the argument that Butch Jones will inevitably be successful here because he was successful at others stops during his coaching career. It is true that he was successful at Central Michigan and again at Cincinnati. However, both times he took over an already successful program, so he basically continued the status quo. At Tennessee that is not true. Essentially he is going to have to rebuild a program, which is something he has yet to do. So far, he is doing a fairly good job, barring some setbacks in game day coaching

To add to this idea that he will be successful solely based on his success at lower level programs, lets look at it from the standpoint of a boxer

Lets say this boxer starts of as a middle weight fighter. He has trained his entire career, so far, to fight boxers of his own weight class and ability. He has shown that he has done well and pretty much handled that level of competition with ease. One day, this boxer gets a chance to move up in weight class. He sees it as the opportunity to challenge himself and prove to himself that he is the best. But, once he does, he realizes that the competition he used to fight is different from what he is fighting now. His new competition is faster, stronger, and more well coached than any boxer he has seen. He notices that is old moves no longer work and that he must get bigger, faster, and stronger to even be able to compete with his new opponents. He notices that the success he was almost guaranteed at his old weight is not as easy at his new weight. But his fans don't see it that way. They look to him as being the dominant fighter like he was before but does not take into account the level he is expected to fight at now. They refuse to believe that he might be just an average fighter at his new weight. They proclaim him champ even before his first match and even after he lost 7 matches out of 12. They point to his one knockout of a favored fighter that he will soon be the next champ and hold the belt high in the ring. Others know that only time will tell if he will be able to conquer his new level of competition and that any shouts of impending glory is simply premature

So, in closing, none of us who show doubt in Jones' abilities is not that we hate him or don't want him to succeed. Its that we have seen this before, heard the same promises, seen the same efforts, seen the same results. We want Jones to succeed, but basing your idea of his future success based on being good at beating lower level competition is asinine. Until he can prove himself at this level and win consistently, what he did at Cincinnati and Central Michigan is irrelevant

:hi:
 
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#2
#2
Nick Saban did not begin his coaching career at D1 Alabama, yes CBJ must prove it on the field, but your argument sounds as though noone can begin small and continue to step up as they gain experience!


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#4
#4
Nick Saban did not begin his coaching career at D1 Alabama, yes CBJ must prove it on the field, but your argument sounds as though noone can begin small and continue to step up as they gain experience!


.

Saban had stops at Michigan State, LSU and the NFL before Alabama

Saban was successful in college not the NFL, along with Spurrier

That proves in itself that success at one level does not translate to success at another
 
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#7
#7
You must not watch boxing. If you did, you might have known that Manny Pacquiao won 8 titles in different weight classes. Hector Camacho won in 7 different titles and there is an endless list of champs in different weight classes.
 
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#8
#8
Jimbo Fisher won the championship last year. its possible an untested coach can succeed.
 
#9
#9
Saban had stops at Michigan State, LSU and the NFL before Alabama

Saban was successful in college not the NFL, along with Spurrier

That proves in itself that success at one level does not translate to success at another

You omitted that Saban actually started his HC career at Toledo, where he had a successful 9-2 season before moving on to Mich St. We can surely agree that coaching at Toledo is a lower level than coaching in the Big 10. I would argue that coaching in the Big 10 is also at a lower level than coaching in the SEC to a lesser degree.
 
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#10
#10
You must not watch boxing. If you did, you might have known that Manny Pacquiao won 8 titles in different weight classes. Hector Camacho won in 7 different titles and there is an endless list of champs in different weight classes.

How many have not?
 
#11
#11
So, in closing, none of us who show doubt in Jones' abilities is not that we hate him or don't want him to succeed. Its that we have seen this before, heard the same promises, seen the same efforts, seen the same results.

Prior to the Kiffin/Dooley trainwreck, where exactly had you seen these same promises/efforts/results?

Given the relative stability of the 80s/90s/early 2000s, your statement seems a bit overdramatic, IMO.
 
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#12
#12
There is one thing different this time he has got talent to come here where I guess you are talking about DD, he could not get talent to come coach Jones is getting the type of players to come to win championships, all we are liking is a few DL and a QB and both will come with this recruiting class in 15.
 
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#14
#14
You omitted that Saban actually started his HC career at Toledo, where he had a successful 9-2 season before moving on to Mich St.

What Saban did at Toledo is irrelevant. He has proven himself at this level.

So since we are comparing Saban And Jones, that means Jones should go 12-0 this year and play for the SECC?

I mean since Saban did that same exact thing
 
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#15
#15
Of course we "don't know." But he's been more successful off the field than any coach at UT in over five years. Most are hoping that translates to winning, and there is good evidence to suggest it will. How many wins; how high will he go? No one knows, but you've got to start digging holes to build cities (or something like that).
 
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#16
#16
Of course we "don't know." But he's been more successful off the field than any coach at UT in over five years. Most are hoping that translates to winning, and there is good evidence to suggest it will. How many wins; how high will he go? No one knows, but you've got to start digging holes to build cities (or something like that).

This is true

But you have seen the posts proclaiming him the next coming of General Neyland
 
#17
#17
A big difference to me is that Jones contributed to the growth of the progrm as an assistant. He did not merely walk inti a stocked program Perhaps he was the engine in their trains.
 
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#18
#18
This is true

But you have seen the posts proclaiming him the next coming of General Neyland

Hope springs eternal. I don't mind the overly positive folks as much as the perpetual debbie downers. It's early, and Jones is doing a lot of things very obviously correctly. That said, it probably wouldn't hurt for some folks to pump the brakes a little.
 
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#19
#19
What Saban did at Toledo is irrelevant. He has proven himself at this level.

So since we are comparing Saban And Jones, that means Jones should go 12-0 this year and play for the SECC?

I mean since Saban did that same exact thing

No, I'm addressing your point that success at lower levels has no bearing on future success at higher levels. His Toledo success actually happened and was indeed at a lower level. It's part of the record.

Also, success isn't solely defined by a 12-0 record. For example, I'd say 10-2 this year from Butch would be a highly successful season.
 
#21
#21
This is true

But you have seen the posts proclaiming him the next coming of General Neyland

I think most on this board are in the wait and see what he does category...however, they do like what he is doing with recruiting and with the overall direction of the program as a whole. The hole the Hamilton put UT in with Kiffin then Dooley was huge, and CBJ and his coaches will need more than 1 year (or 2 years) to fix that and prove what they can do longer term.
 
#22
#22
His recruiting has been amazing, and that was his major question mark coming in. That's why people are saying he will succeed.

The first step of the rebuild is, obviously, building.
 
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#23
#23
No, I'm addressing your point that success at lower levels has no bearing on future success at higher levels. His Toledo success actually happened and was indeed at a lower level. It's part of the record.

Also, success isn't solely defined by a 12-0 record. For example, I'd say 10-2 this year from Butch would be a highly successful season.

If Jones goes 10-2, he'll win coach of the year.
 
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#24
#24
The boxer analogy doesn't work for me. More like a race car driver. CBJ has proven he can drive but at this level he needs a top quality team to help him win.

The players are the car, ours can't quite keep up with Bama's yet.

The team are his assistants, can they get it done? How much can they do with the car we have? Will CBJ be able to recognize and fix problems with the team if needed?
 
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#25
#25
A big difference to me is that Jones contributed to the growth of the progrm as an assistant. He did not merely walk inti a stocked program Perhaps he was the engine in their trains.

He was not an assistant at Cincinnati

He took that position after Kelly left for Notre Dame

Kelly's team won 12 games and finished #4 in the AP. The next year, Jones took that team, minus some skill players, and went 4-8
 
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