Missouri Takeaway

#26
#26
orangeslice said:
I disagree, it does MATTER if the L resulted because the effort and passion were not there. It matters to the players because the only way they get better is to give 100% in every game....that is how they challenge themselves and improve their skills. They can improve in some way from every game even if they lose, but, not if they are not putting out their maximum effort. It MATTERS to the coaches because if the players are not giving 100%, they have NOT been inspired by the coaches. It MATTERS to the fans because we give 100%to this team in our loyalty and support, many times sacrificing in order to attend the games and we have a right to expect that our team will BE IN THE GAME, start to finish, doing everything they are capable of to WIN. If you do not give your maximum effort in EVERYTHING you do, you are already DEFEATED...that is true in life and in an athletic contest. The score is what is on paper, but, the EFFORT is what is most important. You can't go back and change a score, but, you can gain something from every game that will contribute to making you the best you possibly can be, if you give 100% in every situation.
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All of that sounds great but is totally delusional. You have described a fiction. Nobody is capable of always being up, of always giving the maximum effort. You are describing an android: something that has no emotion and doesn't feel pain. Humans can only give so much. In fact, I would be terrified of a person who eats, sleeps, urinates, or procreates, with the intensity you are describing. Isnt that what you need? Maximum effort all the time?

When people are pushed too far for too long they break. That is a rule that has no exception. Everyone has a breaking point. Managing a team of people is about trying to smooth out the peaks and valleys of emotion, not keep people running in the red like an over revved race car. This schedule through Bama, has seen these guys over-revved. What happened against Bama wasn't lack of effort, it was a symbol of our talent disparity and the futility of effort against superiority. These men were bound for a let down.

General Neyland knew this. That is why he purposefully scheduled "breathers" between big games. He was often criticized for his scheduling, but he knew something that you clearly dont. You cant expect perfection after too much adversity. Adversity requires small doses at a time or teams of men collapse.

What I saw Saturday disappointed me. But, Ill be damned if I am going to criticize those players efforts. I didn't wake up sore, Im not walking around exhausted and having to hear that when I stumble that I'm not good enough. That takes its toll. Dwight Eisenhower said "fatigue makes cowards of us all." He was right, but I would add to that the fact that the anonymity of the internet has made cowards out of more men than fatigue.
 
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#27
#27
daj2576 said:
All of that sounds great but is totally delusional. You have described a fiction. Nobody is capable of always being up, of always giving the maximum effort. You are describing an android: something that has no emotion and doesn't feel pain. Humans can only give so much. In fact, I would be terrified of a person who eats, sleeps, urinates, or procreates, with the intensity you are describing. Isnt that what you need? Maximum effort all the time?

When people are pushed too far for too long they break. That is a rule that has no exception. Everyone has a breaking point. Managing a team of people is about trying to smooth out the peaks and valleys of emotion, not keep people running in the red like an over revved race car. This schedule through Bama, has seen these guys over-revved. What happened against Bama wasn't lack of effort, it was a symbol of our talent disparity and the futility of effort against superiority. These men were bound for a let down.

General Neyland knew this. That is why he purposefully scheduled "breathers" between big games. He was often criticized for his scheduling, but he knew something that you clearly dont. You cant expect perfection after too much adversity. Adversity requires small doses at a time or teams of men collapse.

What I saw Saturday disappointed me. But, Ill be damned if I am going to criticize those players efforts. I didn't wake up sore, Im not walking around exhausted and having to hear that when I stumble that I'm not good enough. That takes its toll. Dwight Eisenhower said "fatigue makes cowards of us all." He was right, but I would add to that the fact that the anonymity of the internet has made cowards out of more men than fatigue.
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You need to tell that to Nick Saban and see how fast he kicks your butt out of his office. What do you think George Patton would have said about that BS? We are NOT talking about PERFECTION, we are talking about EFFORT!
 
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#28
#28
orangeslice said:
You need to tell that to Nick Saban and see how fast he kicks your butt out of his office. What do you think George Patton would have said about that BS? We are NOT talking about PERFECTION, we are talking about EFFORT!
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Oh, so you think Patton or Saban would say, "its alright if we lose if we just don't lose that badly and gave effort?" I don't.

Your sound bites are great, but they are merit-less. If you don't understand the distinction between the talent level of Bama and that at UT, and its effect on seasonal outcomes, you are as delusional as Patton (who literally believed he was the reincarnated spirit of famous historical leaders).

Saban can say what he wants, he has other players lined up who are just as talented as his starters. He could run through a 3 deep during most games, which keeps his players fresh, motivated and dominating. Does Jones have that luxury? Saban's players also don't face much adversity in relation to their capabilities. That makes a huge difference to morale.

There are legions of people who could take Saban's roster and win many more games than they lose. That talent gap gives the perception that Nick is an exceptional motivator or tactician. He might be, but that isn't the recipe for his success. Recruiting is his life blood, just as it is ours.

Unlike Bama, we are in a fragile place. We have talent, but it isn't deep. We have good recruits lined up, but they haven't officially signed. You can only get so much out of what we have. As I said, we were due a let down, or a game where effort flagged. It happens. If you believe otherwise, don't allow yourself to think that Saban, Patton, Neyland or Eisenhower would agree with you.
 
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#29
#29
daj2576 said:
Oh, so you think Patton or Saban would say, "its alright if we lose if we just don't lose that badly and gave effort?" I don't.

Your sound bites are great, but they are merit-less. If you don't understand the distinction between the talent level of Bama and that at UT, and its effect on seasonal outcomes, you are as delusional as Patton (who literally believed he was the reincarnated spirit of famous historical leaders).

Saban can say what he wants, he has other players lined up who are just as talented as his starters. He could run through a 3 deep during most games, which keeps his players fresh, motivated and dominating. Does Jones have that luxury? Saban's players also don't face much adversity in relation to their capabilities. That makes a huge difference to morale.

There are legions of people who could take Saban's roster and win many more games than they lose. That talent gap gives the perception that Nick is an exceptional motivator or tactician. He might be, but that isn't the recipe for his success. Recruiting is his life blood, just as it is ours.

Unlike Bama, we are in a fragile place. We have talent, but it isn't deep. We have good recruits lined up, but they haven't officially signed. You can only get so much out of what we have. As I said, we were due a let down, or a game where effort flagged. It happens. If you believe otherwise, don't allow yourself to think that Saban, Patton, Neyland or Eisenhower would agree with you.
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Glad you are not leading our troops....or our football team!!
 
#30
#30
The OP and I share the same brain! Great post bro! Like me, you see reality and tell it like it is! We aren't some cupcake Div 11 school rolling into town...we are THE TENNESSEE VOLUNTEERS!! You cant put up one touchdown on the road? Its like we have totally forgotten how to play football! Butch Jones is really starting to disappoint me...
 
#31
#31
vtvol98 said:
That 3rd and goal screen pass to Dorial Green-Beckham for a TD made the Vol defense look like the Keystone Cops. Talk about out of position.
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Three of our DBs took """"mental reps""" Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday last week instead of practicing. Of course, they magically felt better come Friday and were allowed to still start.

Welcome to Pop Warner ball guys.

This is similar to Tiny never missing a down of playing time no matter how bad he messes up.

Until we get a coach in here that will not allow all these things then we will keep being the joke of the conference and we will keep firing and hiring.

I've seen enough to know that Jones is no better than Dooley.
 
#34
#34
roster said:
Three of our DBs took """"mental reps""" Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday last week instead of practicing. Of course, they magically felt better come Friday and were allowed to still start.

Welcome to Pop Warner ball guys.

This is similar to Tiny never missing a down of playing time no matter how bad he messes up.

Until we get a coach in here that will not allow all these things then we will keep being the joke of the conference and we will keep firing and hiring.

I've seen enough to know that Jones is no better than Dooley.
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woah woah wow!!!
 
#35
#35
I don't expect improvement to be completely even. It never is. You see great effort then let downs. That is normal.

I would have been disappointed with a loss but could have taken it in stride if I had not seen many of the same things the OP points out. I think the team gave up before it started vs Bama and Oregon. That's almost understandable. Both are pretty overwhelming teams... Mizzou... is not.


The one positive I took away from this game in spite of the TO's is Dobbs. Clean up those mistakes and get him some WR help... and he's going to be great.

The guy who went to the game with me graduated from Indiana and is a big time, long time Big 10 fan. He repeated over and over that UT "has something" with Dobbs.

I guess it is the poor performance from guys that "SHOULD" do better that bothers me more than someone who makes more understandable mistakes.... both from a player and coach stand point. If a guy "can" do something and doesn't then you have a coaching problem to go with the player problem. Worst case... the coach can still bench the player.
 
#37
#37
roster said:
Until we get a coach in here that will not allow all these things then we will keep being the joke of the conference and we will keep firing and hiring.
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I agree with the sentiment... but Jones has benched players before. I would like to see him do it now too... but you cannot act like he "won't" do it.

I've seen enough to know that Jones is no better than Dooley.
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I have been pretty critical of the coaching effort vs MU... and think they deserve it. However you have NOT seen enough to draw that conclusion and WON'T this year.

I have repeatedly said that if Jones goes 6-6 then he will have proven no more than Dooley did his first year. That's simply true. But that does not mean he cannot still turn things around over the next couple of years.

Change is never easy.
 
#38
#38
Said it before, when you have Toney starting as your Nickel... It means you are struggling to find players. We have giving up the quick screen for TD's on his cover 2 weeks in a row.. Other teams know who to expose.
J Smith on the Edge as well
 
#39
#39
orangeslice said:
Glad you are not leading our troops....or our football team!!
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You can get far more out of people if you understand what motivates them, and why they do or don't perform.

A heavy handed tyrant (arguably Saban/Patton) can do great things, but it is more a testimony to their people and equipment than them.

Again, General Neyland understood this very thing and he lead both our football team and troops. I know it feels good to be so black and white in your perception of the world; to believe that effort can just be drawn out of anyone at any time, and that with that effort that the greatest adversary can be overcome with consistency.

That just isn't true beyond fairy tales and message boards.

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that we have a very human football team, with no depth and mid-pack SEC Talent. I respect them, and thank them, for what they have done and continue to do.

I don't know what you do for a living but I wont make any assumptions. Let me make it simpler: perhaps you are a farmer (a noble calling). If you have a mule pulling a plow, there is no way intimidate or motivate that mule in such a way that he can beat Seabiscuit in a foot race. If you keep asking him to do that, either with a carrot or a stick, eventually he will just give up, either from exhaustion or from spite. I shudder to think at the way any mule you own would be treated, that would be one whipped animal.
 
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#40
#40
daj2576 said:
You can get far more out of people if you understand what motivates them, and why they do or don't perform.

A heavy handed tyrant (arguably Saban/Patton) can do great things, but it is more a testimony to their people and equipment than them.

Again, General Neyland understood this very thing and he lead both our football team and troops. I know it feels good to be so black and white in your perception of the world; to believe that effort can just be drawn out of anyone at any time, and that with that effort that the greatest adversary can be overcome with consistency.

That just isn't true beyond fairy tales and message boards.

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that we have a very human football team, with no depth and mid-pack SEC Talent. I respect them, and thank them, for what they have done and continue to do.

I don't know what you do for a living but I wont make any assumptions. Let me make it simpler: perhaps you are a farmer (a noble calling). If you have a mule pulling a plow, there is no way intimidate or motivate that mule in such a way that he can beat Seabiscuit in a foot race. If you keep asking him to do that, either with a carrot or a stick, eventually he will just give up, either from exhaustion or from spite. I shudder to think at the way any mule you own would be treated, that would be one whipped animal.
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I respect our players enough to demand excellence from them so that they can develop to their full potential. By reaching for something higher than mediocrity, they will be ahead if they play at the next level or in whatever they choose to do. I don't think making excuses for someone actually helps them. They will have no idea what they could accomplish if they don't challenge themselves to play their best in spite of the odds or the abilities and talents of the opposing team. Your analogy of the mule is amusing...all I can tell you is that if my mule had been in training for several years, worked out every day in the weight room, had the best food and access to the best facilities and in spite of all that was content to eat Seabiscuit's dust, without even trying to run the race, I wouldn't be using a carrot or a stick to entice him, but, a swift kick in the butt! I don't want you to be shuttering to think about how I would treat my mule because I don't have one, but, I do have employees and if I thought any one of them had your attitude about limiting how much they can achieve based on circumstances and not depending on their own drive,ability and will to succeed, they would be shown the door. There are always going to be obstacles, but, if you are not willing to face them head-on and give your best in every task, you will go through your life whining and NEVER achieving.
 
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#41
#41
orangeslice said:
I respect our players enough to demand excellence from them so that they can develop to their full potential. By reaching for something higher than mediocrity, they will be ahead if they play at the next level or in whatever they choose to do. I don't think making excuses for someone actually helps them. They will have no idea what they could accomplish if they don't challenge themselves to play their best in spite of the odds or the abilities and talents of the opposing team. Your analogy of the mule is amusing...all I can tell you is that if my mule had been in training for several years, worked out every day in the weight room, had the best food and access to the best facilities and in spite of all that was content to eat Seabiscuit's dust, without even trying to run the race, I wouldn't be using a carrot or a stick to entice him, but, a swift kick in the butt! I don't want you to be shuttering to think about how I would treat my mule because I don't have one, but, I do have employees and if I thought any one of them had your attitude about limiting how much they can achieve based on circumstances and not depending on their own drive,ability and will to succeed, they would be shown the door. There are always going to be obstacles, but, if you are not willing to face them head-on and give your best in every task, you will go through your life whining and NEVER achieving.
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You and I are never going to see eye to eye. I laugh a bit at your continued assertions that because I understand the limits of human ability that I am a whiner, or have never been a leader/employer or motivator. I was Airborne in the United States Army, went on to start and run a professional consulting firm, and also spent four years as a full time firefighter. I have seen the best and worst of leadership and human nature. I have been involved with things that took my peers, those in my charge, and myself to the extent of our humanly abilities. I have seen strong men break, and admit that I have found the limits of my own abilities whether physical, emotional, intellectual or spiritual. But, Ive never whined and continue to seek those endeavors that allow me to be surrounded by self motivated, capable people. Like you, I get frustrated with people who do not perform to their abilities and do not tolerate that as a rule. What I do understand is the demoralizing effect that exhaustion and emotional stress has on a group's ability to perform. I am not condoning a lack of effort, just admitting that we were due one and that piling on is never helpful. Ever. And yes, what you say here becomes a cacophony that is heard by our players, their families and recruits.
 
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#42
#42
daj2576 said:
You and I are never going to see eye to eye. I laugh a bit at your continued assertions that because I understand the limits of human ability that I am a whiner, or have never been a leader/employer or motivator. I was Airborne in the United States Army, went on to start and run a professional consulting firm, and also spent four years as a full time firefighter. I have seen the best and worst of leadership and human nature. I have been involved with things that took my peers, those in my charge, and myself to the extent of our humanly abilities. I have seen strong men break, and admit that I have found the limits of my own abilities whether physical, emotional, intellectual or spiritual. But, Ive never whined and continue to seek those endeavors that allow me to be surrounded by self motivated, capable people. Like you, I get frustrated with people who do not perform to their abilities and do not tolerate that as a rule. What I do understand is the demoralizing effect that exhaustion and emotional stress has on a group's ability to perform. I am not condoning a lack of effort, just admitting that we were due one and that piling on is never helpful. Ever. And yes, what you say here becomes a cacophony that is heard by our players, their families and recruits.
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We share the same goal, but, we differ on how to reach that goal. I have NO problem with ANYONE seeing anything I have written here!
 
#43
#43
I was geniuly rooting for you guys to win. As much as I hate UT as a rival Mizzou just doesn't belong in the SEC and especially doesn't belong on top of it. I hope the real SEC east teams continue to rise and out recruit those transplants and take this conference back to the old shool. Mizzou fans are unbearable and cocky. Good luck the rest of the year. Please beat the piss out of Auburn.
 
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