MLK would be ashamed

[MikeHamiltonFan]

Schools aren't making overtly racist hiring decisions, necessarily, but the numbers clearly indicate that there's a bias in the overall system. If I hire the coach whom I sincerely think is best guy for the job, and you hire your best candidate, and 100 other ADs hire their favorite candidates too, but 97 out of the 100 coaches end up being white guys, than it's pretty clear that skin color is a factor somehow.

People will shut up about it when you start seeing a reasonable number black head coaches on the sidelines at traditional football powers. I don't doubt that that time's coming soon, as the old boosters start dying off and are replaced by guys who grew up when black people could actually use public restrooms and water fountains, but it's not here yet.

Numbers cannot absent other things be used to prove bias. Unless you think the NBA is racist against white basketball players?

 

[VolBuck24]

This statistic is stupid.

How can a statistic be stupid? When it is misleading. Playing pro football in no way means you are a good coach. Peyton Manning has the intellect to be a great coach but may not be a good teacher at all in that things that come easily for him may not come easily for others at all.

Race should not be a factor in coaching hires period. Racism is evil and wrong, but there is not a huge number of qualified minority coaches being denied an opportunity.

There is also an interesting conversation to be had about affirmative action and its impact on law school and the mismatch problem created.

ND will be a tough job for anyone, it would be foolish to say Ty W is not a good coach because he failed there.

Turner Gil is struggling at Buffallo. He will need to demonstrate some mastery before moving on.

Charlie Strong may be ready to do a fantastic job at Louisville, and that job, the Memphis job etc are better potentials for turning out well than if someone takes over ND.

By the way, I always felt from the start that Croom was a great coach heading in to a bad spot. Winning at Ms. State is almost impossible in the SEC.

There are more white guys in high school basketball than black. Does that mean that colleges and NBA teams are racist for having so few white guys? No...statistics that look for racism are frustrating and often idiotic.

Going 5-7 at Buffalo is a success IMO. He also won 8 games and a conference championship last year. I understand what you are saying though.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Thats not what I'm saying...Some people study harder to be a coach than a player..Be it black or white...Some are just better than others...No racisim intended or implied...Race wasn't an issue when Tyrone Willingham was hired at Notre Dame or Croom at Miss St and lots of others...I just honestly think its being overblown with the race issue...If the person in question was the right coach there would be no issue at all...Strong appears to be the next coach at Louisville...No race issue there and he bellyached about race more than anyone.. Just saying

Seriously? Your response to the assertion that whites and blacks desire equally to be coaches is that "some people study harder"?

You might as well just say, "Black guys are lazy. No racism intended or implied."

 

[droski]

there are plenty of guys who can take lousy football programs and turn them into mediocre ones and still shouldn't be running a major program.

 

[The Dude]

Thats not what I'm saying...Some people study harder to be a coach than a player...Be it black or white...Some are just better than others...No racisim intended or implied...Race wasn't an issue when Tyrone Willingham was hired at Notre Dame or Croom at Miss St and lots of others...I just honestly think its being overblown with the race issue...If the person in question was the right coach there would be no issue at all...Strong appears to be the next coach at Louisville...No race issue there and he bellyached about race more than anyone.. Just saying

In other news, I would never let a woman surgeon operate on me, no sexism intended or implied.

 

[the.one.the.only]

In other news, I would never let a woman surgeon operate on me, no sexism intended or implied.

Sexism is just as stupid as racism. Man and women are obviously different, both physically and mentally. You wouldn't pay a 100lb woman the same as a 250lb man to move heavy equipment around. And before you say it, yes, there are some jobs that women are more equipped or equal to men, but that doesn't mean every single job is equal

 

[The Dude]

This statistic is stupid.

How can a statistic be stupid? When it is misleading. Playing pro football in no way means you are a good coach. Peyton Manning has the intellect to be a great coach but may not be a good teacher at all in that things that come easily for him may not come easily for others at all.

Race should not be a factor in coaching hires period. Racism is evil and wrong, but there is not a huge number of qualified minority coaches being denied an opportunity.

There is also an interesting conversation to be had about affirmative action and its impact on law school and the mismatch problem created.

ND will be a tough job for anyone, it would be foolish to say Ty W is not a good coach because he failed there.

Turner Gil is struggling at Buffallo. He will need to demonstrate some mastery before moving on.

Charlie Strong may be ready to do a fantastic job at Louisville, and that job, the Memphis job etc are better potentials for turning out well than if someone takes over ND.

By the way, I always felt from the start that Croom was a great coach heading in to a bad spot. Winning at Ms. State is almost impossible in the SEC.

There are more white guys in high school basketball than black. Does that mean that colleges and NBA teams are racist for having so few white guys? No...statistics that look for racism are frustrating and often idiotic.

My point was that having played college football is practically a universal prerequisite for being a college football head coach, so when 60 or so percent are black yet only 5% of head guys are, that's a vast enough difference imo for there to be questions. I guess I could have left the pro stat out, but the fact remains that it's a sport played by a majority of blacks. I don' believe in true equality, but the disparity should be much, much smaller.

 

[kptvol]

In other news, I would never let a woman surgeon operate on me, no sexism intended or implied.

Well that's just common sense.

 

[kptvol]

You could probably count the number of D1 head coaches who didn't play college football on one hand.

I know Weis and Cutcliffe didn't. I don't think Mike Leach did, either. There probably aren't a whole lot more.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Numbers cannot absent other things be used to prove bias. Unless you think the NBA is racist against white basketball players?

Numbers can't "prove" bias, obviously, but they can provide pretty damn compelling circumstantial evidence.

And saying that "race is a factor in the system" is not the same thing as saying "ADs are making racist hiring decisions." The NBA is a useful example. Obviously the NBA isn't racist; look at all the good white European players in the league now. But when you look at how few white American players there are compared to black American players, then sure, it's obvious that race is somehow a factor. Not overt racism necessarily, but institutionally, culturally, structurally, something. Race is a factor in American basketball.

And that's what's happening in college coaching. Institutionally, it's a factor. I'm confident it will work itself out over the next few years and we'll be able to quit talking about it, but we're not there yet. And until we are, there's nothing wrong with people talking about it. Sunlight and transparency is always a good thing.

 

[the.one.the.only]

Paul Johnson didn't play ball. GT should fire him and replace him with a black guy who played in the pros

 

[utvolpj]

Numbers can't "prove" bias, obviously, but they can provide pretty damn compelling circumstantial evidence.

I believe the numbers you would have to look at would be how many are actually in coaching and aspire to be HC's. The percentage of players really doesn't mean much IMO.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

My point was that having played college football is practically a universal prerequisite for being a college football head coach, so when 60 or so percent are black yet only 5% of head guys are, that's a vast enough difference imo for there to be questions. I guess I could have left the pro stat out, but the fact remains that it's a sport played by a majority of blacks. I don' believe in true equality, but the disparity should be much, much smaller.

Let me also say this Dude as someone who hates racism and has looked at this problem starting with the assumption that racism was a part of it:

Have you considered that socio economic factors related to race could be playing a major role here?

I am not speaking of schools and the sad fact that many minorities are operating from an educational disparity due to the poor school districts not allowing vouchers.

I am saying if you are brilliant like Darwin Walker and you can start an engineering firm or you can coach a football team, do you really want to coach a football team?

Wait a minute, that is an example of an NFL millionaire! Most successful coaches are not rich getting into coaching...EXACTLY!

If you have ever been in DC, or around politics or coaching you will notice that the high bar for everyone regardless of skin color is that you have to work for nearly free for a few years and get crapped on before you get an opportunity. If your daddy is a successful coach it can help your rise be more meteoric (Kiffin, Pastner) but that is true also regardless of skin color.

I do not think that politics is conspiring to keep out black young men, but my brother who is black will have lots of choices soon when he finishes college as a successful guy. Because my family is not rich, he will not have an allowance of 40k that makes either coaching or politics attractive.

I think that does play a role. Hard to stick through the crap required to coach when there are other options that demand less of a time commitment and offer better financial rewards.

 

[MikeHamiltonFan]

Not overt racism necessarily, but institutionally, culturally, structurally, something. Race is a factor in American basketball.

And that's what's happening in college coaching. Institutionally, it's a factor. I'm confident it will work itself out over the next few years and we'll be able to quit talking about it, but we're not there yet. And until we are, there's nothing wrong with people talking about it. Sunlight and transparency is always a good thing.

I am not opposed to people talking about race, and I want bright light cast towards any shadows where racism lurks. What I hate is that discussions about race in football are mainly guilty paternalistic whites talking about Randy Shannon's burden instead of realistic assessments of coaches that ignore their skin color.

We will be doing better as a nation when Charlie Strong (who does not interview well according to some, who is married to a white woman which he said has hurt him primarily in recruiting minorities whose mothers do not approve, and who has held out for a good-great job while saying no to several) is hired and the story does not mean that he is black.

 

[KentheOrange]

And that's what's happening in college coaching. Institutionally, it's a factor. I'm confident it will work itself out over the next few years and we'll be able to quit talking about it, but we're not there yet. And until we are, there's nothing wrong with people talking about it. Sunlight and transparency is always a good thing.

Not if you continually run the sunlight through a prism.

 

[droski]

I know Weis and Cutcliffe didn't. I don't think Mike Leach did, either. There probably aren't a whole lot more.

meyer only played for a year or two and i don't believe he played a single down. he was a walk on on the practice squad.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I am not opposed to people talking about race, and I want bright light cast towards any shadows where racism lurks. What I hate is that discussions about race in football are mainly guilty paternalistic whites talking about Randy Shannon's burden instead of realistic assessments of coaches that ignore their skin color.

We will be doing better as a nation when Charlie Strong (who does not interview well according to some, who is married to a white woman which he said has hurt him primarily in recruiting minorities whose mothers do not approve, and who has held out for a good-great job while saying no to several) is hired and the story does not mean that he is black.

I don't think it's necessarily a problem to have some of your typical white-guilt voices in the media talking about it. They provide a useful counterpoint to the attitude, prevalent among white people and argued in this thread, is that "the white/black thing is over." It isn't. We've made a ton of progress in this country in the last 40 years; we're maybe 85 or 90 percent of the way there; but we're not there yet. It's too early to just declare that it's over and that people should stop talking about it.

 

[SWTNVOLFAN]

I don't see how racism can be blindly dismissed when only 4-5% of college coaches are black, while half of college football players are black and 70 percent of pro guys are black.

So should we limit the amount of players and coaches to the percentage their race accounts for in the general population? Your statistics show that white players are being excluded from playing because of race. Or could it be that the most qualified people are actually the ones who are playing and coaching? Equal opportunity does not mean equal results.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I believe the numbers you would have to look at would be how many are actually in coaching and aspire to be HC's. The percentage of players really doesn't mean much IMO.

I don't know that "how many white guys vs black guys aspire to be coaches" is a knowable number. The only thing that is knowable is how many black coaches there actually are -- which is currently, out of 120 I-A coaching jobs, nine guys. All but one of whom are at second-rate jobs.

Maybe black guys don't want to go into coaching as much. Maybe a lot of black players only began seriously regarding coaching as a career a few years ago and therefore haven't had time to work their way up the ladder enough. Maybe it's just simply that most ADs are hamstrung by old white boosters who don't like black men. You can throw out theories all day, but whatever the case, the fact that there's only one black man holding one of the dozens of decent college coaching jobs in the country indicates pretty clearly that race is involved somehow.

 

[pantone151]

What ever happened to hiring the most qualified applicant?

why on Earth would you bring logic into this?!

 

[tim]

For the most part BCS schools hire coaches who have been a HC in their career. Most (not all) BCS coaches started in lower level colleges and became HC's and proved themselves. Another large percentage of current coaches started out as an assistant at the college they eventually become the HC of. Kind of like a farm league type of deal. Currently, there are only two coaches (to my knowledge) that were not head coaches prior to becoming a HC in the SEC (Richt and Mullen, both of whom were OC's on National championship teams) Bottom line, there are a lot of coaches, that for whatever reason, never become head coaches. Black or white.