Music Theory / Diatonic Function discussion, Chord Progression analysis thread

#26
#26
My nephew's girlfriend just graduated with a degree in music education. What would be a thoughtful graduation gift?
 
#27
#27
Quaint88 said:
Thanks for explaining that. So, describing the chord progression as V, IV, I implies that the root of the I is the tonic, which is inaccurate here because it's actually the root of the V. What would be a better way to notate the chord progression for modal pieces (a link is fine if it's a lot to explain)?

ETA: I7, bVII, V/bVII? That would accurately identify the tonic.
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Well, the thing is that modal music was originally conceived as solely melodic. However, we all know that melodies can imply and/or outline harmony, but there's not a standardized harmonic analysis system for modes that I'm aware of. I know some analysts just use chord names for that situation. If you forced me to do a harmonic analysis, I would probably just state that it's E-Mixolydian with a progression of E7-Dmaj7-Amaj7-E7.

If you want to use the method you proposed, it would be I7-bVIImaj7- IVmaj7-I7. That A is not a dominant chord, and therefore not a secondary dominant.
 
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#29
#29
Chris4Vols22 said:
Well, the thing is that modal music was originally conceived as solely melodic. However, we all know that melodies can imply and/or outline harmony, but there's not a standardized harmonic analysis system for modes that I'm aware of. I know some analysts just use chord names for that situation. If you forced me to do a harmonic analysis, I would probably just state that it's E-Mixolydian with a progression of E7-Dmaj7-Amaj7-E7.

If you want to use the method you proposed, it would be I7-bVIImaj7- IVmaj7-I7. That A is not a dominant chord, and therefore not a secondary dominant.
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I appreciate the explanation. I like the Roman numeral notation because it abstracts away the key-based details of the chord progression, but I've been using them wrong. It's really helpful to attempt to work a problem and have someone point out exactly where I went astray.
 
#30
#30
Quaint88 said:
I appreciate the explanation. I like the Roman numeral notation because it abstracts away the key-based details of the chord progression, but I've been using them wrong. It's really helpful to attempt to work a problem and have someone point out exactly where I went astray.
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Yes, I agree, RN analysis is GREAT because it delineates the chord spellings and their functions within keys. Applying that analysis to the appropriate music is a very satisfying experience IMO.

And no problem with the explanation. This is one of very few occasions I can use my degrees from UT lol. I love doing stuff like this.
 
#31
#31
Here's another common chord progression: B A G A (all major chords)

The scales I would use are B Mixolydian, A Lydian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian. Previously, I would've said we start out in the key of E for the B and A chords, then switch to D when we hit the G and A chords. Now that I know that's wrong, I would say we start in B Mixolydian, but how do I describe what happens when we get to the G chord?

ETA: I would say that when we get to the G chord, we want to gravitate towards the A chord. Are we using the G chord to tonicize the A chord and make it sound like we've changed keys to A Mixolydian (the bVII)?
 
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#33
#33
Quaint88 said:
Here's another common chord progression: B A G A (all major chords)

The scales I would use are B Mixolydian, A Lydian, G Lydian, A Mixolydian. Previously, I would've said we start out in the key of E for the B and A chords, then switch to D when we hit the G and A chords. Now that I know that's wrong, I would say we start in B Mixolydian, but how do I describe what happens when we get to the G chord?

ETA: I would say that when we get to the G chord, we want to gravitate towards the A chord. Are we using the G chord to tonicize the A chord and make it sound like we've changed keys to A Mixolydian (the bVII)?
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Hmmm, I'm not sure about this one. Yeah, the G does feel like a subtonic (bVII) resolving to A (I). That's not textbook "tonicization" though because that would require the first chord to have a leading tone to the root of the next (G# - A), but it does still make the A chord feel like tonic.

What's a good example with this progression? I think I may be able to understand better with the music.
 
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#36
#36
Chris4Vols22 said:
Hmmm, I'm not sure about this one. Yeah, the G does feel like a subtonic (bVII) resolving to A (I). That's not textbook "tonicization" though because that would require the first chord to have a leading tone to the root of the next (G# - A), but it does still make the A chord feel like tonic.

What's a good example with this progression? I think I may be able to understand better with the music.
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I should've dug around a little before posting the version of it that starts with a major chord because most of the time it starts with a minor. I've been messing with it for a while, but I guess the whole thing is only common in my head. I can find a few songs with the descending part of the progression or with the ascending part of the progression, but I haven't found the entire progression in any. I put the YouTube links in spoiler tags so they wouldn't take up so much vertical space.

The theme to the The Legend of Zelda starts with the descending part (but it's much more complex after that).

"Can I Sit Next To You" by Spoon also has the descending part, but they hit an F# instead of going back to the A. The keyboard solo does a nice job of highlighting the change from D# to D when we get to the G chord. This is the closest that I could find to the whole progression.

When I was digging around for songs, I found a video saying that the ascending part can be explained by borrowing chords from the parallel minor. So if that's correct, we start in B Mixolydian for the B, A part, and borrow the bVI and bVII from B Aeolian for the G, A part.

The ascending part is used on the intro to "With A Little Help From My Friends" by the Beatles ("Billy Shears!"). It's also used in "Lady Madonna" at the end of the progression.


I'll post the other version of the progression next. There are all kinds of songs for that one.
 
#37
#37
Chris4Vols22 said:
Hmmm, I'm not sure about this one. Yeah, the G does feel like a subtonic (bVII) resolving to A (I). That's not textbook "tonicization" though because that would require the first chord to have a leading tone to the root of the next (G# - A), but it does still make the A chord feel like tonic.

What's a good example with this progression? I think I may be able to understand better with the music.
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After reading around a little, I think the term I was looking for was modulation (from the E Major tonality to the D Major tonality when we hit the G chord). Thanks for reminding me of the subtonic concept. I think we can describe this progression as B Mixolydian I, bVII, bVII/bVII, I/bVII, or tonic, subtonic, subtonic of subtonic, tonic of subtonic. Thoughts?
 
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