My previous comparison of Cuonzo and Dools

#1
vavolunteer

vavolunteer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
553
Likes
215
#1
Seems I stirred up quite the hornets nest in comparing Cuonzo and his stint at UT with that of Dooley. After letting the adrenaline of the Florida loss subside and increasing the level of martinis (stirred, not shaken, wet, with olives) I feel I need to add the following:

1. I owe Coach Martin an apology. Comparing him to Dooley on a personal level is unfair. As several posters pointed out, the more we learned about Dooley on a personal level, the more everyone hated him. He was, in fact, a pompous ass that was in love with himself and his hair. Cuonzo is not that at all. The more we learn of him, the more people say he is a great person.

2. There are some aspects between basketball and football that are difficult to compare. I get that.

3. However, the one glaring similarity, and maybe the point I should have focused on originally, is that they have both drastically underachieved while at UT. We all have evaluations in our jobs. We know Dooley's record. If we look at Cuonzo's history while at UT in the major areas i.e., recruiting, wins/losses, achievement with present talent, development of incoming talent, marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc., would he receive a standard (meets expectations) rating? Unfortunately, I doubt it. And I do mean unfortunately because I really want him, and our basketball players, to succeed.

I'll admit, while I was totally pissed when Dooley (the team) lost to Vandy, after a while I was glad because it was the nail in the coffin. I'm not there yet with Cuonzo (hoping we lose so we can make a change). I think it's difficult for a true fan to ever get to that place. I want our young men to achieve their potential, but right now I'm at the point of "Tougher breed? Tougher than what, exactly?"

Coach, I believe you're in over your head. That being said, I'm a joe blow nobody fan. Please, find an offensive scheme that works and can put our guys in a position to win games.

There you go, my two cents. If it were worth anything, I'd be saying it to an AD and not posting it on a message board. :hi:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 people
#3
#3
I actually agree for the most part about their success levels. One might argue that cuonzo has a better record but the sec is a lot better in fb than bball
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#5
#5
Unlike Dooley, Cuonzo has beat every major rival we have in his tenure here. Also unlike football where you win 6 games and you are in a bowl. Bball has a silly selection and Martin can't be held responsible for them not selecting the Vols especially last year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#6
#6
Underachieved by whose standards? Delusional fans who act like he inherited anybody that had done anything. The media saw the mess Pearl left. We were picked to finish at the bottom of the SEC. ll of 12. We finished number two, way above projections both year. Beat the defending NC both years. This year we were not a top 25 team. We are on pace for the NCAA. How is that underachieving?

Recruiting? He got a Five star both his first two years at UT. That is pretty good for UT. This class is alright but not great. He has not recruited well in the post besides Stokes.

Development? No one he inherited averaged more than 3 points besides Tatum who was a sr that averaged 8.8. He turned Mcrae into an all SEC 17-20 point performer. Took Maymon from a 2 points a game player to a double digit scorer. Stokes has gotten better every year. J Rich has made strides. Pearl had players who never got better and some that did. Same with Martin.

Marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc. Where has he failed at this? He has represented UT very well off the court. I don't get what people mean when they say this. Give me an example of him making UT look bad. Martin has done nothing but great things off the court. His players don't get in trouble like Pearl's. Academics are top-notch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#7
#7
10NCVol88 said:
Unlike Dooley, Cuonzo has beat every major rival we have in his tenure here. Also unlike football where you win 6 games and you are in a bowl. Bball has a silly selection and Martin can't be held responsible for them not selecting the Vols especially last year.
Click to expand...

losses to Ole Miss, Alabama and the dagger, two losses to a bad GA team did him in last season. Martin did control his own destiny but failed to win games he shouldn't have lost, just like Dooley losing to KY in 2011
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#8
#8
k-town_king said:
Underachieved by whose standards? Delusional fans who act like he inherited anybody that had done anything. The media saw the mess Pearl left. We were picked to finish at the bottom of the SEC. ll of 12. We finished number two, way above projections both year. Beat the defending NC both years. This year we were not a top 25 team. We are on pace for the NCAA. How is that underachieving?

Recruiting? He got a Five star both his first two years at UT. That is pretty good for UT. This class is alright but not great. He has not recruited well in the post besides Stokes.

Development? No one he inherited averaged more than 3 points besides Tatum who was a sr that averaged 8.8. He turned Mcrae into an all SEC 17-20 point performer. Took Maymon from a 2 points a game player to a double digit scorer. Stokes has gotten better every year. J Rich has made strides. Pearl had players who never got better and some that did. Same with Martin.

Marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc. Where has he failed at this? He has represented UT very well off the court. I don't get what people mean when they say this. Give me an example of him making UT look bad. Martin has done nothing but great things off the court. His players don't get in trouble like Pearl's. Academics are top-notch.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you on the last point. Cuonzo has always done a very good job of representing the University. He is a true professional. I disagree with you though on player development. Stokes has not come as far as most people would have expected. Maymon is almost woeful, granted, I think he could still be considered to be returning from a knee injury. Lastly, Martin didn't inherit a dumpster fire like Butch did. He inherited a program that had made six straight appearances in the dance. And, they probably would have gone further in Pearl's last year if Hamilton weren't such a douche with how he handled Pearl's termination.

The main point being, even if you believe Cuonzo has done a great job, or even above average, in all these areas, how do explain the overall lack of progress during these past two and half (almost three) years. We are very much the same now as we were then, except now our offense, when it shows up, is as boring as watching paint dry.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#9
#9
k-town_king said:
Underachieved by whose standards? Delusional fans who act like he inherited anybody that had done anything. The media saw the mess Pearl left. We were picked to finish at the bottom of the SEC. ll of 12. We finished number two, way above projections both year. Beat the defending NC both years. This year we were not a top 25 team. We are on pace for the NCAA. How is that underachieving?

Recruiting? He got a Five star both his first two years at UT. That is pretty good for UT. This class is alright but not great. He has not recruited well in the post besides Stokes.

Development? No one he inherited averaged more than 3 points besides Tatum who was a sr that averaged 8.8. He turned Mcrae into an all SEC 17-20 point performer. Took Maymon from a 2 points a game player to a double digit scorer. Stokes has gotten better every year. J Rich has made strides. Pearl had players who never got better and some that did. Same with Martin.

Marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc. Where has he failed at this? He has represented UT very well off the court. I don't get what people mean when they say this. Give me an example of him making UT look bad. Martin has done nothing but great things off the court. His players don't get in trouble like Pearl's. Academics are top-notch.
Click to expand...

You know what, before your post I thought Zo had a lot to be desired as coach. Now I want to sign him to a 10 year extension with a huge buyout. He's got to be the best coach in the SEC.

By the way, can I get your email address? I don't see it happening soon but if I need to redo my resume I would love to have your help.

Might I ask one quick question though? If Zo is a great recruiter and he develops players so well, what's the disconnect? I mean, surely a coach that can recruit and develop should be able to win enough games to get us to the tourney, right? Or are you insinuating he's the worst X's and O's coach in the history of the game?
 
#10
#10
10NCVol88 said:
Unlike Dooley, Cuonzo has beat every major rival we have in his tenure here. Also unlike football where you win 6 games and you are in a bowl. Bball has a silly selection and Martin can't be held responsible for them not selecting the Vols especially last year.
Click to expand...


I think you make a good point in that we have been able to compete with and defeat our major SEC rivals on multiple occasions over the past couple years especially Florida. Until yesterday, Cuonzo was 3-0 against them.

However, to say Cuonzo gets no blame for us not making the tourney because there is a selection committee is hogwash. If you are clearly good enough you are in the dance. If you are not and you are on the bubble its the team's and the coach's fault. Our biggest problem has been consistency. Some of our losses, especially early in the season, have been deplorable.
 
#11
#11
10NCVol88 said:
Unlike Dooley, Cuonzo has beat every major rival we have in his tenure here. Also unlike football where you win 6 games and you are in a bowl. Bball has a silly selection and Martin can't be held responsible for them not selecting the Vols especially last year.
Click to expand...

They did not deserve to go last year. Even if they had they would not have made it past the first game.
 
#13
#13
I'm not a big fan of Martin as a coach. I think he's rather mediocre but Dools was on a level of bad that Martin hasn't approached.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#14
#14
k-town_king said:
Underachieved by whose standards? Delusional fans who act like he inherited anybody that had done anything. The media saw the mess Pearl left. We were picked to finish at the bottom of the SEC. ll of 12. We finished number two, way above projections both year. Beat the defending NC both years. This year we were not a top 25 team. We are on pace for the NCAA. How is that underachieving?

Recruiting? He got a Five star both his first two years at UT. That is pretty good for UT. This class is alright but not great. He has not recruited well in the post besides Stokes.

Development? No one he inherited averaged more than 3 points besides Tatum who was a sr that averaged 8.8. He turned Mcrae into an all SEC 17-20 point performer. Took Maymon from a 2 points a game player to a double digit scorer. Stokes has gotten better every year. J Rich has made strides. Pearl had players who never got better and some that did. Same with Martin.

Marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc. Where has he failed at this? He has represented UT very well off the court. I don't get what people mean when they say this. Give me an example of him making UT look bad. Martin has done nothing but great things off the court. His players don't get in trouble like Pearl's. Academics are top-notch.
Click to expand...

We are not on pace for the NCAA. We are 3-3 in a very weak conference with two bad losses (UTEP & NC St). We were just blown out by a team we have beat with some regularity. We play with very little passion. Martin is a great guy and I hope we can win out, but we face a difficult schedule and if we shoot like Saturday we will be lucky to finish 9-9 in conference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#15
#15
Don't worry it's a sure bet CCM does not read your post, so no need to apologize to him he has no idea.
 
#16
#16
Way to man up.

It sucks to see a good guy not succeed at his job, but it's college sports. We took a gamble and, unfortunately, it doesn't look like it's going to pan out. There should be no bad blood from level-headed UT fans toward CCM, and it shouldn't come from the other direction, either. UT gave him his first shot at the big leagues, and all he has to do is look up to the NCAA Tournament Appearances banner to see his measuring stick.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#19
#19
Ace said:
We are not on pace for the NCAA. We are 3-3 in a very weak conference with two bad losses (UTEP & NC St). We were just blown out by a team we have beat with some regularity. We play with very little passion. Martin is a great guy and I hope we can win out, but we face a difficult schedule and if we shoot like Saturday we will be lucky to finish 9-9 in conference.
Click to expand...
Let me start out start out by saying that I DO NOT support coach Martin, because I know someone will spin it that way on what I'm about to say.

Martin and Dooley should never be mentioned in the same sentence. Dooley is arrogant, and not a very likable person. On the other hand Martin is likable and has morals. Dooley isn't a HC and honestly shouldn't be any type of coach period. Martin is a HC a mid major type school. Dooley has never had a winning season. Martin has had a winning season every single year he's coach except once I think. He's beaten every team in the SEC, unlike Doolster who won 4 sec games.

Do I want CCM as our coach? No, but to compare him to Dooley isn't right.

Edit: also as ugly as the NCST loss was it's not considered a bad loss because they are 76th in RPI and the committee doesn't look at how ugly we played in the 1st half that game they look at their RPI. Also UTEP is getting close to not being a bad loss since they are all the way up to 108 in the RPI which is 3 spots ahead of TAMU which looks like our worst loss. We got 2 top 50 wins, I think we really need to beat Ole Miss, then beat either Florida at home or Mizzou on the road because they are the only teams we have left that have a chance at being in the top 50 and we can't crap the bed on any more TAMU type teams (which is every team on our schedule left besides the 3 schools I named.
 
Last edited:
#20
#20
Ace said:
We are not on pace for the NCAA. We are 3-3 in a very weak conference with two bad losses (UTEP & NC St). We were just blown out by a team we have beat with some regularity. We play with very little passion. Martin is a great guy and I hope we can win out, but we face a difficult schedule and if we shoot like Saturday we will be lucky to finish 9-9 in conference.
Click to expand...

Actually we are, but ok.
 
#21
#21
vavolunteer said:
I completely agree with you on the last point. Cuonzo has always done a very good job of representing the University. He is a true professional. I disagree with you though on player development. Stokes has not come as far as most people would have expected. Maymon is almost woeful, granted, I think he could still be considered to be returning from a knee injury. Lastly, Martin didn't inherit a dumpster fire like Butch did. He inherited a program that had made six straight appearances in the dance. And, they probably would have gone further in Pearl's last year if Hamilton weren't such a douche with how he handled Pearl's termination.

The main point being, even if you believe Cuonzo has done a great job, or even above average, in all these areas, how do explain the overall lack of progress during these past two and half (almost three) years. We are very much the same now as we were then, except now our offense, when it shows up, is as boring as watching paint dry.
Click to expand...

I don't think he has done great every year. He did great his first year. He did have a dumpster fire. NCAA sanctions looming. His top returning player was Tatum who averaged less than 9 points. His next highest was Trae Golden at 3 points. Have people forgotten we were picked to finish 11 of 12 in the SEC? He finished 2nd and won some SEC COTY awards. With that weak team finished with the same record Pearl had the year before with a team with ten times the talent any Martin team has had. The reason we were picked so low is Pearl left a mess and no impact returners.

Progress? We average more points , have a better RPI , and more wins atm than the first two year at the same point. We are in or on the bubble right now. The first two years we were at or below .500 right now. We were in need of a huge push to even be on the bubble. That is progress.

Development? If Maymon is woeful now than what was he under Pearl when he averaged 2 points? Before the injury he was our leading scorer. He still is a double double threat. His knee has hurt his average though. Before Martin McRae averaged 1.8 points now 18.5. He developed. Stokes went from 9.5 pts and 7.5 rebs to now 13.6 pts and 9.9 rebs even while facing constant doubles. He developed. I'm sure some expect him to average 20 though so if he developed enough is debatable.

I definitely don't think he has done great or been perfect. He did well the first two years considering what Pearl left behind. People should be realistic. It's a reason no one picked us top 25 the last three years. If we make the NCAA its a good year. I just think its crazy how people claim we have top 15 talent when just a couple of seasons ago we were picked 11 of 12 and had no good players back. If our talent is so great that means Martin developed them or he has recruited well right? He has tried to fix the Pearl mess. He got a 5 star player both his first two years. Won more than he was supposed to.

He should make it this year because he did develop and recruit players. But this is the first year he is expected to make it. I think we will, others don't. But lets not act like he underachieved his first two years.
 
#22
#22
I have no confidence that we will make the NCAA tournament. I like CCM as a person but he is obviously in over his head. This team is as talented as I've seen in a long time and I am a grad of 84. He was so outcoached game to game it is not even funny.

Gonna be a lot of heartbroken fans on this site when we don't make the tournament.
 
#23
#23
vavolunteer said:
I think you make a good point in that we have been able to compete with and defeat our major SEC rivals on multiple occasions over the past couple years especially Florida. Until yesterday, Cuonzo was 3-0 against them.

However, to say Cuonzo gets no blame for us not making the tourney because there is a selection committee is hogwash. If you are clearly good enough you are in the dance. If you are not and you are on the bubble its the team's and the coach's fault. Our biggest problem has been consistency. Some of our losses, especially early in the season, have been deplorable.
Click to expand...

I am more focusing on the fact that in football the metric is known, 6 wins. In basketball it is not known, "quality wins vs no bad losses." I agree with us being inconsistent. I also know that is apart of the parity in bball.

Also in the "quality wins" category we are behind last years team which didnt make the tourney. However we are "on pace" to reach the ncaa tourney this year. We beat more ranked teams last year than we will this year.
 
#24
#24
k-town_king said:
Marketing of program, public relations, individual representative of the university, etc. Where has he failed at this? He has represented UT very well off the court. I don't get what people mean when they say this. Give me an example of him making UT look bad. Martin has done nothing but great things off the court. His players don't get in trouble like Pearl's. Academics are top-notch.
Click to expand...

Didn't Golden get into 'trouble' last year? Isn't that why he's not on the team now? Oh...I guess the Martin apologists will say he was a 'Pearl' player, so it really doesn't count, right??
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top