National Day of Prayer

[turambar85]

Seems like a non-issue. There are plenty of "national days" that I don't give a whoot about.

The issue is church-state separation. The other days may be foolish, but they aren't blatantly unconstitutional.

 

[kptvol]

Not to knock lawgator, who has seemed clever enough, the LSAT is a remarkably easy test if you have any training in critical thinking. It doesn't take cheating!

But, the point about the relevance of the darwin/atheist shirt thing is legitimate. It doesn't really address the issue in any real way. There is no direct connection between the constitutional legitimacy of a governmental endorsement of religion, and whether or not a student would get kicked out of school for wearing an atheistic t-shirt.

Hell, it is entirely possible that somebody could get sent home from public school for wearing an atheistic shirt without it being a matter of church and state separation (as the school systems could begin eliminating any overtly political or religious messages on clothing), so the logic train doesn't even work that way. It is neither a necessary or sufficient condition. It just didn't make sense.

I'm sure volinbham was being entirely serious with that protest.

I'm familiar with the LSAT. That's exactly why I made the comment.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

It's a big deal if the president releases a statement asking American's to pray, and explicitly mentioning God in an allegedly separated government.

Seriously??? You think separation of church and state has anything to do with limiting a politician from mentioning God??? You may want to retake your history class.

Not to mention, in its most commonly used form, prayer is the most repugnant aspect of religion. It even passes that meaningless term faith.

It is narcissism at its worst.

Couldn't be more wrong... you might also want to read the Bible and see what it says about prayer.

 

[turambar85]

Seriously??? You think separation of church and state has anything to do with limiting a politician from mentioning God??? You may want to retake your history class.



Couldn't be more wrong... you might also want to read the Bible and see what it says about prayer.

Yeah...or you could read more charitably. It isn't a politician mentioning God, it is the bloody president suggesting we all pray to God. Do you maybe see a difference, or should I have Lawgator use his LSAT skills and break it down logically for you?

As for prayer being a form of narcissism....I'm speaking to usage, not biblical suggestions. What I'm saying is that any prayer than asks for help or intercession is narcissism at its worst, on a cosmic scale.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Yeah...or you could read more charitably. It isn't a politician mentioning God, it is the bloody president suggesting we all pray to God. Do you maybe see a difference, or should I have Lawgator use his LSAT skills and break it down logically for you?

As for prayer being a form of narcissism....I'm speaking to usage, not biblical suggestions. What I'm saying is that any prayer than asks for help or intercession is narcissism at its worst, on a cosmic scale.

My bad... didn't realize the POTUS wasn't a politician. Still has little or nothing to do with the purpose for separation of church and state, and more than likely LG would agree if you'd care to ask him.

Regarding your second point, perhaps you can enlighten me with which definition of narcissism you're referring to... cause I still don't get it. If I say a prayer for someone else I'm not sure how you consider that to be narcissistic... but what do I know (besides the meaning of words I use)?

1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.
4. The attribute of the human psyche charactized by admiration of oneself but within normal limits.

 

[turambar85]

My bad... didn't realize the POTUS wasn't a politician. Still has little or nothing to do with the purpose for separation of church and state, and more than likely LG would agree if you'd care to ask him.

Regarding your second point, perhaps you can enlighten me with which definition of narcissism you're referring to... cause I still don't get it. If I say a prayer for someone else I'm not sure how you consider that to be narcissistic... but what do I know (besides the meaning of words I use)?

1. Excessive love or admiration of oneself.
2. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem.
3. Erotic pleasure derived from contemplation or admiration of one's own body or self, especially as a fixation on or a regression to an infantile stage of development.
4. The attribute of the human psyche charactized by admiration of oneself but within normal limits.

Well, it is questionable enough to currently be being considered by the courts. It isn't exactly trivial for the president to suggest to the country that they pray to God...especially when God is to be differentiated from the way other religions refer to their deity (with more particular names), and so the call has a very Christian ring to it.

It is clearly narcissistic to pray for oneself, and is, I think, self-centered enough to border one it to pray for those that one loves, other much more deserving.

 

[tvolsfan]

Well, it is questionable enough to currently be being considered by the courts. It isn't exactly trivial for the president to suggest to the country that they pray to God...especially when God is to be differentiated from the way other religions refer to their deity (with more particular names), and so the call has a very Christian ring to it.

It is clearly narcissistic to pray for oneself, and is, I think, self-centered enough to border one it to pray for those that one loves, other much more deserving.

That's a little twisted way of looking at it.

 

[turambar85]

That's a little twisted way of looking at it.

Nope. You believe that the universe and God all orbit around your tiny little portion of the world, and that these things have supreme importance. And, how disgusting it makes god...for her to grant these petty prayers for the privileged over those that are so much more in need of help.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Well, it is questionable enough to currently be being considered by the courts. It isn't exactly trivial for the president to suggest to the country that they pray to God...especially when God is to be differentiated from the way other religions refer to their deity (with more particular names), and so the call has a very Christian ring to it.

It is clearly narcissistic to pray for oneself, and is, I think, self-centered enough to border one it to pray for those that one loves, other much more deserving.

What is being considered in the courts is the US law directing the president to proclaim such a day violates the First Amendment. This is far different from your statement that the POTUS mentioning God, or even asking people to pray, is a church/state issue. A politician is free to do this whenever they want. The issue being attacked/questioned is the law. Two different things.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Nope. You believe that the universe and God all orbit around your tiny little portion of the world, and that these things have supreme importance. And, how disgusting it makes god...for her to grant these petty prayers for the privileged over those that are so much more in need of help.

Who does? Is anyone praying as egotistical in that endeavor as you are in presuming what people pray for or who they pray to?

You get to prioritize problems in the world? You get to tell people where to be concerned. You get to define petty and privileged? Your ego apparetly knows no bounds.

I don't hear anyone else telling you which issues need your concern, care or time. You're the only one dictating. Odd, huh?
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[TennTradition]

God, it still smells in this thread from LG showing his ass.

 

[Oldvol75]

85, you really have some deep issues. It really doesn't make much sense to constantly attack something that you personally don't believe in. To constantly attack the beliefs of others that are different from your own.

You said once that you came on this board to tell the truth to others. You have no proof or 100% truth to share, you have only your opinion and that of your belief in science. Your anger and hatred of others beliefs is just sad and I truly feel sorry for you. I appologize if this hurts your feelings or angers you.

 

[volinbham]

Drawing analogies like that, its hard to see how you got out of the third grade.

As analogies go I think it's pretty good.

We have a national day of prayer - analogous to a holiday (Cinco de Mayo). If students wore shirts meant to bait those observing the day (American flags or Atheism) then shouldn't the end result be the same?

We have recognized day and some students using their clothing to send a message counter to that day.

Yep, it's a good analogy.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

As analogies go I think it's pretty good.

We have a national day of prayer - analogous to a holiday (Cinco de Mayo). If students wore shirts meant to bait those observing the day (American flags or Atheism) then shouldn't the end result be the same?

We have recognized day and some students using their clothing to send a message counter to that day.

Yep, it's a good analogy.

Makes perfect sense to me. :yes:

 

[turambar85]

What is being considered in the courts is the US law directing the president to proclaim such a day violates the First Amendment. This is far different from your statement that the POTUS mentioning God, or even asking people to pray, is a church/state issue. A politician is free to do this whenever they want. The issue being attacked/questioned is the law. Two different things.

Gah! You would think that it would have been clear that I was referencing this insofar as it is a national day of prayer, which means that the president is supposed to make this suggestion. Remember, I am criticizing the day, and his role in the day. That makes it crystal clear that I'm not just referencing rogue actions.

 

[TennTradition]

As analogies go I think it's pretty good.

We have a national day of prayer - analogous to a holiday (Cinco de Mayo). If students wore shirts meant to bait those observing the day (American flags or Atheism) then shouldn't the end result be the same?

We have recognized day and some students using their clothing to send a message counter to that day.

Yep, it's a good analogy.

Clearly you lack the good lawyer's keen senses of logic and deduction.

 

[turambar85]

85, you really have some deep issues. It really doesn't make much sense to constantly attack something that you personally don't believe in. To constantly attack the beliefs of others that are different from your own.

You said once that you came on this board to tell the truth to others. You have no proof or 100% truth to share, you have only your opinion and that of your belief in science. Your anger and hatred of others beliefs is just sad and I truly feel sorry for you. I appologize if this hurts your feelings or angers you.

Really? The belief is put out there as a national day, stop pretending that it is a private matter. Christians consistently try to make their beliefs a matter of public discourse. They want holidays, they want tax exemption, they want the ten commandments, and they want to fight evolution wish creationism. I am NOT coming here to pick on your personal beliefs. I'm attacking ideas in the public marketplace of ideas. Take our the nipple, and put your big boy pants on.

Second, if I said the truth, I was being facetious. I tell the truth as I see it. My epistemology does not account for direct access to ultimate reality, and it is not that claims to be infallible.

And, even if I did claim truth, I am basing this argument on the constitution and on logical reasoning. If you want more reasons, ask for them. Don't just sit there and pontificate on levels of discourse.

 

[tvolsfan]

Really? The belief is put out there as a national day, stop pretending that it is a private matter. Christians consistently try to make their beliefs a matter of public discourse. They want holidays, they want tax exemption, they want the ten commandments, and they want to fight evolution wish creationism. I am NOT coming here to pick on your personal beliefs. I'm attacking ideas in the public marketplace of ideas. Take our the nipple, and put your big boy pants on.

You're generalizing, and badly.

Second, if I said the truth, I was being facetious. I tell the truth as I see it. My epistemology does not account for direct access to ultimate reality, and it is not that claims to be infallible.

And, even if I did claim truth, I am basing this argument on the constitution and on logical reasoning. If you want more reasons, ask for them. Don't just sit there and pontificate on levels of discourse.

Can't we just look them in a science book?

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Really? The belief is put out there as a national day, stop pretending that it is a private matter. Christians consistently try to make their beliefs a matter of public discourse. They want holidays, they want tax exemption, they want the ten commandments, and they want to fight evolution wish creationism. I am NOT coming here to pick on your personal beliefs. I'm attacking ideas in the public marketplace of ideas. Take our the nipple, and put your big boy pants on.

Second, if I said the truth, I was being facetious. I tell the truth as I see it. My epistemology does not account for direct access to ultimate reality, and it is not that claims to be infallible.

And, even if I did claim truth, I am basing this argument on the constitution and on logical reasoning. If you want more reasons, ask for them. Don't just sit there and pontificate on levels of discourse.

Put down the Red Bull now... you have obviously exceeded the maximum safety limit.

 

[BeecherVol]

85 hasn't been around much lately. Makin up for lost time.