NCAA needs a rules change?

[volinbham]

Further, think of the confusion if you fumble into the endzone (and out either the back or side) on 4th down! They couldn't give you the ball back even at the 20 or you'd get a free play.

Think also of the kick-off and punt analogy - the kicking team is the offensive team -- they put the ball through the endzone and the other team gets it on the 20. If you think about it, you see that the exception to the rule is the incomplete forward pass where the offensive team puts the ball through the endzone but still retains possession.

 

[jakez4ut]

If you think about it, you see that the exception to the rule is the incomplete forward pass where the offensive team puts the ball through the endzone but still retains possession.

interesting...cause the ball is still live. but there is the inherent "possession" of the ball when a fumble occurs. That's when you "lose" possession. an incomplete forward pass is live, but does not consititute loss of possession unless there is a recepiton by the other team....

and in the KO and punting, those are change of possession plays anyway....it is weird though, the ball on punts is not considered live until touched by the opposing team, but on KO's it's live until some one on either team recovers....

 

[OldVol]

How could you fumble from the back of the endzone?

If you have possession near the back of the endzone, it's a touchdown.

It does seem silly that you get the ball at the one inch line, but lose it if it goes out through the endzone.

Moral to the story. HANG ON TO THE BALL STUPID!

 

[VolBeef88]

Why does it matter where you fumble out of bounds? I have always thought that was a dumb rule. If a team fumbles out of bounds and neither team can control the ball then the ball should go to the team that last had possession. In the case of the ball going out of bounds in the end zone the team that last controlled the ball should get the ball on the one. If a team gets a INT in the endzone and gets hit trying to advance the ball and it goes out of bounds where should it be placed?

 

[jakez4ut]

Why does it matter where you fumble out of bounds? I have always thought that was a dumb rule. If a team fumbles out of bounds and neither team can control the ball then the ball should go to the team that last had possession. In the case of the ball going out of bounds in the end zone the team that last controlled the ball should get the ball on the one. If a team gets a INT in the endzone and gets hit trying to advance the ball and it goes out of bounds where should it be placed?

i disagree...with Anderson's fumble last year, that would have actually advanced the ball....the whole problem is that with a fumble, you inherently have possession of the ball before the fumble. once it is fumbled it is live. If it goes in to the end zone, as a live ball, it is a turnover and ruled a touchback. i for one think it's a good rule.

as for the INT question....can you clarify that? when you say he gets hit trying to advance the ball...and goes out of bounds, does he retain possesion? if so, the ball is placed where he's tackled. If he goes down in the endzone it's a touch back.

Now, if he catches it in the endzone, establishes possesion, and gets hit and fumbles the ball out of bounds in the endzone, i think it would be ruled a safety. If it were recovered in the endzone by the opposing team, it would be a touchdown.

 

[volinbham]

Look at it this way.

1) Team A has the ball and is backed up at their own one. They pitch the ball and subsequently fumble it in their own endzone - the ball is not recovered and goes out of the endzone (side or back).

Result - safety. Other team gets 2 points and the ball after a free-kick from the 20. Likely Team B ends up with good field position.

2) Team A has the ball somewhere in the field of play. They pitch the ball and it is fumbled out of bounds.

Result - Team A retains possession where the ball went out or Team B gets the ball if it was 4th down and the ball was not advanced far enough to get a first down.

3) Team A is advancing towards the opponents goal. They fumble the ball and it goes out of the endzone unrecovered. Note, the ball had to go forward for this to occur.

Result - Touchback. Team B receives the ball on the 20.

As you see - the result depends on which of the 3 zones the fumble out of bounds occurs in. It is the responsibility of the offense to CONTROL the ball into the scoring zone (with the exception of the forward pass since technically possession is intentionally given up (pass) and regained (reception)). Points must be earned. Note also that the penalty for fumbling out of your own endzone is more severe - the opposing team is awarded points and gets the ball in more advantageous field position.

 

[volinbham]

Now, if he catches it in the endzone, establishes possesion, and gets hit and fumbles the ball out of bounds in the endzone, i think it would be ruled a safety. If it were recovered in the endzone by the opposing team, it would be a touchdown.

I think you are correct.

 

[OldVol]

I think you are correct.

 

[milohimself]

How could you fumble from the back of the endzone?

If you have possession near the back of the endzone, it's a touchdown.

It does seem silly that you get the ball at the one inch line, but lose it if it goes out through the endzone.

Moral to the story. HANG ON TO THE BALL STUPID!

Exactly. I don't care what the rules are, just don't drop the damned ball and we're good.

 

[VolBeef88]

i disagree...with Anderson's fumble last year, that would have actually advanced the ball....the whole problem is that with a fumble, you inherently have possession of the ball before the fumble. once it is fumbled it is live. If it goes in to the end zone, as a live ball, it is a turnover and ruled a touchback. i for one think it's a good rule.

as for the INT question....can you clarify that? when you say he gets hit trying to advance the ball...and goes out of bounds, does he retain possesion? if so, the ball is placed where he's tackled. If he goes down in the endzone it's a touch back.

Now, if he catches it in the endzone, establishes possesion, and gets hit and fumbles the ball out of bounds in the endzone, i think it would be ruled a safety. If it were recovered in the endzone by the opposing team, it would be a touchdown.

On my question about the INT your correct. But as far as the fumble through the endzone advancing the ball, that is the case on the rest of the field. If for instance a team has the ball on their own 20 and they fumble it on a run play at the 25 and it goes out at the 31 without being recovered where is the ball placed and who gets control?

I would disagree with giving a team a score for a fumble through the endzone.

 

[PineyBluff Vol]

I said it the year it happened and I still think this is a crazy rule. I still believe the team that fumbles the ball is getting a raw deal. It should be just the same or as close to the same as a fumble on the sideline. Team gets the ball at the spot it goes out of bounds on the sideline and the team gets the ball at the previous line of scrimmage. A fumble through the endzone is not a touchback!

 

[jakez4ut]

On my question about the INT your correct. But as far as the fumble through the endzone advancing the ball, that is the case on the rest of the field. If for instance a team has the ball on their own 20 and they fumble it on a run play at the 25 and it goes out at the 31 without being recovered where is the ball placed and who gets control?

I would disagree with giving a team a score for a fumble through the endzone.

they keep possesion where the ball went out of bounds, if i remmeber correctly, and that's if it wasn't a "deliberate" fumble to advance the ball resulting in a 1st down, which is against the rules.

the bottom line here is it's a penalty for the possessing team. it's more or less punishment for doing something stupid.

someone said it earlier, if that call would have been in favor of us, no one would be complaining at all , and we'd all love the rule, and we'd be telling bama fans to quit whining.

 

[VolBeef88]

they keep possesion where the ball went out of bounds, if i remmeber correctly, and that's if it wasn't a "deliberate" fumble to advance the ball resulting in a 1st down, which is against the rules.

the bottom line here is it's a penalty for the possessing team. it's more or less punishment for doing something stupid.

someone said it earlier, if that call would have been in favor of us, no one would be complaining at all , and we'd all love the rule, and we'd be telling bama fans to quit whining.

That is not true. I have thought that rule was dumb for a long time. Out of bounds is out of bounds. That rule makes as much since as saying that a WR who catches the ball out of the back of the endzone is more wrong than a WR who catches a ball out of bounds on the sideline. Not a good rule. And yes, I think it is our fault for fubling the ball but that does not make a dumb rule a good rule.

 

[volinbham]

My last comment (if you're lucky :biggrin2: ) on the subject.

This rule is 1) fundamental to the concept of the "zones" of the field and 2) dates back to the origins of the game and the concept of a "touch down".

It is not a trivial rule or one just thrown in - it is based on the fundamental idea of the game.


If you argue this then wouldn't you also say a fumble out of your own endzone should NOT be a safety and you should get the ball back at the line of scrimmage?

 

[VolBeef88]

My last comment (if you're lucky :biggrin2: ) on the subject.

This rule is 1) fundamental to the concept of the "zones" of the field and 2) dates back to the origins of the game and the concept of a "touch down".

It is not a trivial rule or one just thrown in - it is based on the fundamental idea of the game.
If you argue this then wouldn't you also say a fumble out of your own endzone should NOT be a safety and you should get the ball back at the line of scrimmage?

SO it goes back to the origins of the game! What does that have to do with anything? There have been numerous changes to the original rules. Bottom line for me. Out of bounds is out of bounds. If a team fumbles and the opposing team does not get control of the ball then the ball should go back to the team that fumbled it. In this case the ball should be placed on the one.

 

[GAVol]

It's just one of about 50 rules that exist, but are difficult to explain. I'd say it's about 47th on the list of rules to change.

 

[VolBeef88]

IMO by giving the ball to the opposing team for a fumble out of bounds your giving that team a gift for not being able to recover the fumble.

 

[hatvol96]

IMO by giving the ball to the opposing team for a fumble out of bounds your giving that team a gift for not being able to recover the fumble.

Why isn't it a reward for causing the fumble? Or punishment to the opposition for, as an example, putting the ball in the hands of a fullback totally incapable of holding on to the ball in key situations?

 

[VolBeef88]

Why isn't it a reward for causing the fumble? Or punishment to the opposition for, as an example, putting the ball in the hands of a fullback totally incapable of holding on to the ball in key situations?

Well not all fumbles are caused and if that is the case then all fumbles regardless of where they go out of bounds should be rewarded to the defensive team.

 

[jakez4ut]

Well not all fumbles are caused and if that is the case then all fumbles regardless of where they go out of bounds should be rewarded to the defensive team.

yeah, that's fair?

 

[VolBeef88]

yeah, that's fair?

My point exactly Jake. The ball goes out of bounds without the defenders having posession and yet because it goes out of bounds in the endzone the defenders get a gift.

 

[KYVolFan]

Every one remembers the fumble last year against Alabama that cost us the game. I think that's a stupid rule. Not only did they get the ball but they advanced the ball 30 yards up the field. I don't think you should get the ball without recovering it, but if you do give to the other team the ball give it to them on the one yard line.

After last year, we need a Vol Rule about Fumbleitis. Fumble the Ball and the Coaches all take turns kicking theplayers A#S up to his elbows everyday after 45 minutes of windsprints.

 

[Mr. Rockytop]

thats a good idea if you like paralysis

I use to be a :dance2: cheap shot artist on kickoff until I got my own taste of medicine :mf_surrender: , I remember that lick 15 years later, so please keep the rules activated for special teams.