Nebraska 0-2

[butchna]

I know - I mean you certainly can start to lean one way or the other about a person after a small sample size, but I don't think you can truly "know" until after a couple years at a minimum. We all had suspicions about Dooley and his abilities as soon as he was hired, but I don't think anybody really knew how bad a coach he was until later on in that second year, particularly after the Kentucky loss. By the middle of year 3, it was patently obvious he didn't have it and the firing was inevitable.

Butch actually steadily improved the program until midway through the 2016 season. It wasn't clearly apparent to me that he couldn't coach until the 2016 South Carolina game, and I had suspicions he couldn't coach starting during 2015 because of all the blown games. So we're talking 3-4 years in with Butch.

All good points. I’d say improvements in teaching, coaching and team mindset will be IMMEDIATELY noticeable tho.

 

[05_never_again]

All good points. I’d say improvements in teaching, coaching and team mindset will be IMMEDIATELY noticeable tho.

Maybe, maybe not. Georgia certainly didn't see immediate improvement during Kirby's first year. He inherited a 10-3 team and went 8-5, including losses to Vandy and Georgia Tech and a loss to Butch on a Hail Mary. That was a pretty underwhelming debut season. Heading into 2017, most Georgia fans I knew had an attitude of "C'mon Kirby, Richt was better than this, you better be a lot better this year." Now the guy could be Governor of Georgia if he wanted to.

At Alabama Saban took a 6-7 team from the previous year and went 7-6, including a loss to a 6-6 Louisiana-Monroe team. There was improvement over the previous year in some areas...they did beat a couple of ranked teams (including Tennessee) and lost close games to a few other ranked teams. However, and it sounds crazy now, but Bama fans were ready to run him out of town if he won 6 or 7 games the next year. It's really shortsighted to come to conclusions after just a single year, no matter how bad the year was. A lot of Bammers I know, and they'll never admit it now, were strongly leaning towards the possibility Saban wasn't the guy after that first year.

I buy that you should see improvement (although it might be uneven) in some areas in year 1, but you can't really start to form conclusions until a coach is coaching guys he actually recruited.

 

[butchna]

Maybe, maybe not. Georgia certainly didn't see immediate improvement during Kirby's first year. He inherited a 10-3 team and went 8-5, including losses to Vandy and Georgia Tech and a loss to Butch on a Hail Mary. That was a pretty underwhelming debut season. Heading into 2017, most Georgia fans I knew had an attitude of "C'mon Kirby, Richt was better than this, you better be a lot better this year." Now the guy could be Governor of Georgia if he wanted to.

I buy that you should see improvement (although it might be uneven) in some areas in year 1, but you can't really start to form conclusions until a coach is coaching guys he actually recruited.

In UGA’s case you could argue that a 10 win team could only go one way with a coaching change with a different approach. When you have a 4 win team ANY improvement should be noticeable. I’ll throw this out, even with the two turnovers Saturday, we’re waves better I that department and that department was the major downfall of our 2016 team.

 

[05_never_again]

In UGA’s case you could argue that a 10 win team could only go one way with a coaching change with a different approach. When you have a 4 win team ANY improvement should be noticeable. I’ll throw this out, even with the two turnovers Saturday, we’re waves better I that department and that department was the major downfall of our 2016 team.

Yes, but you have to remember we were also a 4-win team. Improvement can be noticeable but it also is likely to be really incremental at first. I think some of the veterans on this team are pretty beaten down and disillusioned about their college careers, honestly. That's all the more reason to give Pruitt time to recruit and see just how good a team of his can be when he picks the players and has had 2-3 years to coach them.

Kirby inherited a 10-win team and I think the expectation was to at least sustain that; their people didn't anticipate losses to Ole Miss (in blowout fashion), Vandy, and Georgia Tech. There was also a 2-point win against a mediocre FCS school (Nicholls St) and a 1-point win against a 4-8 Missouri team in there too. He inherited a very good team and they actually got worse in his first year. Now it seems apparent that was because they were transitioning to his schemes because they are firing on all cylinders now, but that's only obvious in hindsight. You see now what he's doing with the guys he's recruited...they are really good. If Georgia was still something like 7-5, 8-4 last year and looked unimpressive so far this year then yes, it would be pretty fair to say he's probably not the guy.

 

[butchna]

Yes, but you have to remember we were also a 4-win team. Improvement can be noticeable but it also is likely to be really incremental at first. I think some of the veterans on this team are pretty beaten down and disillusioned about their college careers, honestly. That's all the more reason to give Pruitt time to recruit and see just how good a team of his can be when he picks the players and has had 2-3 years to coach them.

Kirby inherited a 10-win team and I think the expectation was to at least sustain that; their people didn't anticipate losses to Ole Miss (in blowout fashion), Vandy, and Georgia Tech. There was also a 2-point win against a mediocre FCS school (Nicholls St) and a 1-point win against a 4-8 Missouri team in there too. He inherited a very good team and they actually got worse in his first year. Now it seems apparent that was because they were transitioning to his schemes because they are firing on all cylinders now, but that's only obvious in hindsight. You see now what he's doing with the guys he's recruited...they are really good. If Georgia was still something like 7-5, 8-4 last year and looked unimpressive so far this year then yes, it would be pretty fair to say he's probably not the guy.

When I’m talking RESULTS, it isn’t about wins or losses as much as performance. Dominating cupcakes is a good first step and I believe that’s improved. Now for the next steps which I anticipate seeing over the course of the season. Expecting a 180 against WVU wasn’t realistic...expecting a winning mindset and better fundamentals by SC, Mizzou and Kentucky is.

 

[YankeeVol]

First time since 1957 they've started 0-2 iirc

 

[ETV]

They started a walk on qb

They had an open competition to be starter. The loser transferred. A little tough to be making any statements yet.

Exactly. Backup put in a request to transfer the next day after Martinez was named starter. Nebraska isn't without talent but they are far from competing with other B10 powers.

 

[wmcovol]

They started a walk on qb

They had an open competition to be starter. The loser transferred. A little tough to be making any statements yet.

When youre down to one scholly QB you think you wouldnt run the QB much but Frost did. And he's paying the price.

 

[wmcovol]

I know - I mean you certainly can start to lean one way or the other about a person after a small sample size, but I don't think you can truly "know" until after a couple years at a minimum. We all had suspicions about Dooley and his abilities as soon as he was hired, but I don't think anybody really knew how bad a coach he was until later on in that second year, particularly after the Kentucky loss. By the middle of year 3, it was patently obvious he didn't have it and the firing was inevitable.

Butch actually steadily improved the program until midway through the 2016 season. It wasn't clearly apparent to me that he couldn't coach until the 2016 South Carolina game, and I had suspicions he couldn't coach starting during 2015 because of all the blown games. So we're talking 3-4 years in with Butch.

i had doubts beginning in 2015 with the OU game (what kind of coach kicks a fg on 4th and 1/2 yd on first drive of the game at home) and the followup UF game where they totally butchered the 2 minute drill. Then he totally screws up 2016 letting it be a "players run team".

 

[05_never_again]

i had doubts beginning in 2015 with the OU game (what kind of coach kicks a fg on 4th and 1/2 yd on first drive of the game at home) and the followup UF game where they totally butchered the 2 minute drill. Then he totally screws up 2016 letting it be a "players run team".

Doubts started to creep in after that Florida game, definitely, because of the compounding effect of those losses. Blowing that Oklahoma game was a kick in the nuts, and that lead was blown largely because of coaching decisions, but you could take solace in the fact that Oklahoma was a very good team that year (won the Big 12/made CFP) with several NFL prospects and Tennessee was a young team not used to being in that position and learning how to close out games. When they blew another game 2 weeks later against an inferior opponent for largely the same reasons, it was definitely cause for concern. They even followed up that Florida loss by blowing another lead at home against Arkansas. Not in dramatic fashion at the end of the game, but still blew a 14-point lead.

My give up moment on Butch and his teams as far as emotional energy was after 2016 South Carolina. I was pretty sure after that game he wasn't the guy that was going to get us to where he wanted to go. After the 2016 Vandy loss, I started to figure his time here was really starting to run short and 2017 presented a better than 50% chance at a coaching change.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Doubts started to creep in after that Florida game, definitely, because of the compounding effect of those losses. Blowing that Oklahoma game was a kick in the nuts, and that lead was blown largely because of coaching decisions, but you could take solace in the fact that Oklahoma was a very good team that year (won the Big 12/made CFP) with several NFL prospects and Tennessee was a young team not used to being in that position and learning how to close out games. When they blew another game 2 weeks later against an inferior opponent for largely the same reasons, it was definitely cause for concern. They even followed up that Florida loss by blowing another lead at home against Arkansas. Not in dramatic fashion at the end of the game, but still blew a 14-point lead.

My give up moment on Butch and his teams as far as emotional energy was after 2016 South Carolina. I was pretty sure after that game he wasn't the guy that was going to get us to where he wanted to go. After the 2016 Vandy loss, I started to figure his time here was really starting to run short and 2017 presented a better than 50% chance at a coaching change.

I actually started having a bad taste in my mouth in 2014, because we were very lucky to go 6-6. And that was thanks to Dobbs in the SC game that we probably should have lost. That became a theme under Jones, we had several games that you wanted to say we pulled out a hard fought victory but it became like it was good fortune. 2016 is when it all fell apart and looking back yeah the SC and Vandy games were terrible but how easily could the team could have been 6-6 again. We were very fortunate to beat App St. and it took a hail mary to beat Georgia. And many games we dug a hole early, which became annoying. And his last year, we were very fortunate to beat Georgia Tech.

But yes, the SC game in 2016 was the point I thin most Vol fans came to the conclusion Jones was never going to be better than 8-4, or I guess at that moment 9-3 since I doubt many thought Vandy would beat us a few weeks later. And it's probably not really fair, but seeing him jumping around like he just won the SEC after the 2016 Music City Bowl just really ticked me off.

 

[05_never_again]

How much longer before Neal Brown's name starts getting seriously mentioned with a big time coaching vacancy? There were whispers last year but nothing all that concrete.

He's 23-6 over the last 2+ years including a 6 point loss at #2 Clemson in 2016, a win at #25 LSU last year, and a win at Nebraska this year.

 

[Pappy]

I'm thinking Herm's success is kind of like Tebow's NFL success, just a bunch of humorous luck strung together

and a nice fat bank account

 

[DiderotsGhost]

Lulz.

I forgot about Herm Edwards.

Funny too cause I remember all during the spring and summer, I don't think I heard one positive thing about him from any analyst. They were sure it was going to be a disaster.

It's only Year 1.

College game is very different from pro game. In the pro game, game planning and play calling are big factors that explain success. In the college game, recruiting and player development are much bigger; and coaches are more like CEOs.

Remember, Jim Mora looked like a genius in his first few seasons at UCLA, too. So did Charlie Weis at Notre Dame. They came into situations with some talent and improved in-game coaching immediately, which improved results quickly. They couldn't sustain that success because they weren't elite at recruiting and player development.

This is why a guy like Saban was a flop in the NFL but a massive success in college. Saban is not a brilliant game planner or in-game strategist. He's brilliant at recruiting, player development, and managing a large organization. So Saban's first year at Bama didn't look that great (as he didn't immediately improve the in-game aspects), but the long-term results are difficult to argue with.

 

[05_never_again]

This is why a guy like Saban was a flop in the NFL but a massive success in college. Saban is not a brilliant game planner or in-game strategist. He's brilliant at recruiting, player development, and managing a large organization. So Saban's first year at Bama didn't look that great (as he didn't immediately improve the in-game aspects), but the long-term results are difficult to argue with.

I'd say he's brilliant at least relative to other college coaches. He might not have been a brilliant strategist relative to other NFL coaches who, you are correct, make their living by out-scheming their peers and not necessarily by having more talent than them. Saban makes in-game, game-to-game, and season-to-season adjustments better than any other college coach I've ever seen. He understands tactical football, especially on defense, at an extremely high level. Except in extremely rare, almost flukish circumstances (like the Kick Six), Alabama never appears to encounter a situation they aren't ready for or haven't previously prepared for.

IMO, it is his tactical knowledge that really sets him apart from other college coaches. There are a ton of college coaches, even good college coaches, who are glorified used car salesmen or high school gym teachers. They really don't understand football schemes and tactics at any sort of advanced level.

Think about the difference between Saban and someone like Ed Orgeron. Saban is better at every aspect of coaching than Coach O, to say the least. But Coach O is a fairly good recruiter, motivator, and talent developer (at least on defense) himself. There is a gigantic gap between Saban and Coach O in the area of in-game coaching/game planning. Saban's teams, in any given year, are very comparably talented to LSU's. Yet LSU hasn't beaten Alabama since 2011. In some of those years, LSU actually sent more guys to the NFL than Alabama did. What's the difference? Alabama is better coached and better prepared.