Nil, Revenue Sharing and Title IX

[S.C. OrangeMan]

God bless you both, you really are trying. (said with no irony)

What part of "proposals aren't the law" escaped you?

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

God bless you both, you really are trying. (said with no irony)

I love it. Competing proposals of which done are in direct opposition to each other.

The ones that try to either cap NIL or that try to define "legitimate" NIL are very likely to run into Constitutional issues in the unlikely e event that Congres pases one of them.

Think the basis for the entire Civil Rights Act.
The four major pro sports ATE's don't - and can't - grant exemptions to it. Neither can any ATE the NCAA might get. If any NCAA ATE creates disparate racial impact, the courts will toss it.

Given the differences in the different racial makeups of the athletes - especially football guys - and the general student positions, anything that creates a different set of rules for those two groups is, by definition, discrimination.

No one tries to limit general student transfers.
No one tries to limit general student private NIL.
No one tries to limit the number of years a general college student takes to complete a degree or multiple degrees.

Don't act like Congress can just do whatever they want - or even agree what that is. There's this thing called "federal checks and balances" that gets in the way.

And if you don't think smart lawyers have anticipated this and are getting the Constitutional lawsuits prepared, I have a bell tower at Furman for sale, rock bottom prices.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I love it. Competing proposals of which done are in direct opposition to each other.

The ones that try to either cap NIL or that try to define "legitimate" NIL are very likely to run into Constitutional issues in the unlikely e event that Congres pases one of them.

Think the basis for the entire Civil Rights Act.
The four major pro sports ATE's don't - and can't - grant exemptions to it. Neither can any ATE the NCAA might get. If any NCAA ATE creates disparate racial impact, the courts will toss it.

Given the differences in the different racial makeups of the athletes - especially football guys - and the general student positions, anything that creates a different set of rules for those two groups is, by definition, discrimination.

No one tries to limit general student transfers.
No one tries to limit general student private NIL.
No one tries to limit the number of years a general college student takes to complete a degree or multiple degrees.

Don't act like Congress can just do whatever they want - or even agree what that is. There's this thing called "federal checks and balances" that gets in the way.

And if you don't think smart lawyers have anticipated this and are getting the Constitutional lawsuits prepared, I have a bell tower at Furman for sale, rock bottom prices.

Besides replying to the wrong person, you're simply shown wrong left, right, and center. You feel like you get a win by saying "they aren't law yet" when the SCOTUS SUGGESTED that's what the NCAA needed to get..... Congress to pass a law. EACH of those laws would serve as Antitrust Exemptions and allow NIL restrictions.

NONE of the NIL restriction cases have been argued on Constitutional grounds but against Sherman. Why would they use Sherman vs using the Constitution as you suggest? Think about it.

It's very obvious Congress can restrict NIL. You're just delusional at this point. As the other gentleman said, Jesus could tell you differently and you'd argue with him.

Have a wonderful life. I'll let you reply then block you.

 

[Sudden Impact]

Don't worry anything a man or women can create a man or woman can defeat.
Any legal mind or lawyer that can create a log jam can be defeated. Each state will have the right to govern their on pots. It is a mess but will be sorted out in the courts. Oh boy here we go again. Who thought up this approach? The NCAA and greed.

 

[woodpusher]

I love it. Competing proposals of which done are in direct opposition to each other.

The ones that try to either cap NIL or that try to define "legitimate" NIL are very likely to run into Constitutional issues in the unlikely e event that Congres pases one of them.

Think the basis for the entire Civil Rights Act.
The four major pro sports ATE's don't - and can't - grant exemptions to it. Neither can any ATE the NCAA might get. If any NCAA ATE creates disparate racial impact, the courts will toss it.

Given the differences in the different racial makeups of the athletes - especially football guys - and the general student positions, anything that creates a different set of rules for those two groups is, by definition, discrimination.

No one tries to limit general student transfers.
No one tries to limit general student private NIL.
No one tries to limit the number of years a general college student takes to complete a degree or multiple degrees.

Don't act like Congress can just do whatever they want - or even agree what that is. There's this thing called "federal checks and balances" that gets in the way.

And if you don't think smart lawyers have anticipated this and are getting the Constitutional lawsuits prepared, I have a bell tower at Furman for sale, rock bottom prices.

Hmm...Harlan Huckleby exhausted his eligibility to play college football in 1978. He finally did graduate in 1985.

The ACUI (Association of College Unions International) sponsors intercollegiate chess, 8-ball, college bowl (academic trivia), and other tournaments. There's no money in any of that but as I recall, the eligibility limit was 8 years -- I assume it still is.

 

[woodpusher]

Most schools have a 10-year limit on completing a Ph.D....I'm not sure about bachelor's or master's.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Most schools have a 10-year limit on completing a Ph.D....I'm not sure about bachelor's or master's.

Easy workaround. Go for multiple degrees. I have a friend who is in something like his 23rd year of college. Part time adult learner.
Bachelor's degree from one university. Three Master's degrees from three other universities. Now enrolled in a doctorate program. Mostly part time student due to full time employment. He just likes going to school.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Besides replying to the wrong person, you're simply shown wrong left, right, and center. You feel like you get a win by saying "they aren't law yet" when the SCOTUS SUGGESTED that's what the NCAA needed to get..... Congress to pass a law. EACH of those laws would serve as Antitrust Exemptions and allow NIL restrictions.

NONE of the NIL restriction cases have been argued on Constitutional grounds but against Sherman. Why would they use Sherman vs using the Constitution as you suggest? Think about it.

It's very obvious Congress can restrict NIL. You're just delusional at this point. As the other gentleman said, Jesus could tell you differently and you'd argue with him.

Have a wonderful life. I'll let you reply then block you.

Easy. It's a layered defense. Lawyers don't play their hole card first. Fewer billable hours that way.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Easy. It's a layered defense. Lawyers don't play their home card first. Fewer billable hours that way.

Besides replying to the wrong person, you're simply shown wrong left, right, and center. You feel like you get a win by saying "they aren't law yet" when the SCOTUS SUGGESTED that's what the NCAA needed to get..... Congress to pass a law. EACH of those laws would serve as Antitrust Exemptions and allow NIL restrictions.

NONE of the NIL restriction cases have been argued on Constitutional grounds but against Sherman. Why would they use Sherman vs using the Constitution as you suggest? Think about it.

It's very obvious Congress can restrict NIL. You're just delusional at this point. As the other gentleman said, Jesus could tell you differently and you'd argue with him.

Have a wonderful life. I'll let you reply then block you.

That's a list of B.S. Congress cannot limit private NIL. There is zero basis for it. I've told you over and over the other ATE examples and none of them can limit private NIL. I've shown examples. I didn't claim that proposals are the same as laws. (Wonder who did that).

Your reference to Jesus is a lie.

I don't give a fig if you block me. It will get some stupid and embarrassment for UT out of my life.

In closing, Congress has checks and balances. They can't just do whatever they want. Take a 10th grade American Government class, then get back to me.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

People said that about everything that’s happened in the last 10 years too

No changes have been nearly as dramatic as turning it into a semi-pro league.

What's the viewership like on literally ANY semi-pro league out there? Including the XFL.

I'm a diehard football fan and I wouldn't watch a snap of it.

 

[Christian Lowe]

No changes have been nearly as dramatic as turning it into a semi-pro league.

What's the viewership like on literally ANY semi-pro league out there? Including the XFL.

I'm a diehard football fan and I wouldn't watch a snap of it.

They’re new leagues with no tradition. If the sec and big 10 split sports off and kept the same names and everything, people would watch it.

 

[KnoxRealtorVOL]

They’re new leagues with no tradition. If the sec and big 10 split sports off and kept the same names and everything, people would watch it.

0.0% chance

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

NCAA Athlete NIL Pay Must Be Title IX Compliant, Dept. of Education Says

DoE's Office of Civil Rights has released its long-awaited guidance on Title IX and NIL, two weeks before House v. NCAA settlement objections are due.

www.sportico.com

this could change a lot of the landscape and further delay "fixing" all the problems with NIL and Portal.

Doubt it...vast majority of payments are made by 3rd parties so Title IX is irrelevant in that regard

 

[MinisterofDef#92]

I love it. Competing proposals of which done are in direct opposition to each other.

The ones that try to either cap NIL or that try to define "legitimate" NIL are very likely to run into Constitutional issues in the unlikely e event that Congres pases one of them.

Think the basis for the entire Civil Rights Act.
The four major pro sports ATE's don't - and can't - grant exemptions to it. Neither can any ATE the NCAA might get. If any NCAA ATE creates disparate racial impact, the courts will toss it.

Given the differences in the different racial makeups of the athletes - especially football guys - and the general student positions, anything that creates a different set of rules for those two groups is, by definition, discrimination.

No one tries to limit general student transfers.
No one tries to limit general student private NIL.
No one tries to limit the number of years a general college student takes to complete a degree or multiple degrees.

Don't act like Congress can just do whatever they want - or even agree what that is. There's this thing called "federal checks and balances" that gets in the way.

And if you don't think smart lawyers have anticipated this and are getting the Constitutional lawsuits prepared, I have a bell tower at Furman for sale, rock bottom prices.

It's almost as if some deny the reality and ignore the obvious implications of the SCOTUS remarks in Alston vs. the NCAA. Many also don't seem to understand the difference between state and federal laws.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Go away. I've shown you that in NIL cases, the argument is on the Sherman Act but you keep insisting even Congress can't restrict NIL even with an Antitrust Exemption.

Then why do all the cases use Sherman and Antitrust?

It's okay to be wrong sometimes. I was wrong about this at first but it's VERY clear from Alston that Gorsuch TELLS the NCAA to plead their case to Congress to fix the situation.

No matter what you think about the matter, I'll trust Neil Gorsuch to know what the NCAA should do legally over you.

Gorsuch didn't say that Congress could let the NCAA interfere in two other parties' private business deals. He basically blew off the NCAA by telling them that their current behavior is illegal and if they don't like it to go cry somewhere else.

Again, the 4 major sports have ATEs. Zero of those 4 can interfere with their athletes' NIL.

You are claiming that CC ingress can basically give someone that doesn't employ you the ability to limit how much money you make. That's not legal under the 13th Amendment. Congress can't change the Constitution on their own. You seem to think they have unlimited power. They don't.

You're basically a little kid throwing a temper tantrum and screaming "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right". You aren't.

 

[Christian Lowe]

0.0% chance

I would’ve believed you a decade ago. But it’s already not college sports anymore and everyone just deluded themselves into believing it is.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I would’ve believed you a decade ago. But it’s already not college sports anymore and everyone just deluded themselves into believing it is.

I think if the transition happened more slowly than it seems to be happening people could adapt to it and accept it more easily.

As it is, every change.... every lawsuit schools like UT file or join..... leads to a court order that destroys the rules on NIL (the TN and VA case) or throws the portal wide open (the WV case.)

I'm at a loss why UT seems to want no guardrails as quickly as possible when it leads directly to a pro model. I get that we want to win and are winning but this isn't likely to end well.

 

[TheDeeble]

I think if the transition happened more slowly than it seems to be happening people could adapt to it and accept it more easily.

As it is, every change.... every lawsuit schools like UT file or join..... leads to a court order that destroys the rules on NIL (the TN and VA case) or throws the portal wide open (the WV case.)

I'm at a loss why UT seems to want no guardrails as quickly as possible when it leads directly to a pro model. I get that we want to win and are winning but this isn't likely to end well.

I don’t think the NCAA left Tennessee with any other choice. They were looking to hit Tennessee with bogus recruiting violations which would have set UT back years. I think the lawsuit against the NCAA was the only avenue to prove the NCAA was wrong. If the NCAA hadn’t gone after Nico’s recruitment, then that lawsuit isn’t filed yet. Probably inevitable but maybe from a different school.

Outside of that, I’d guess there has been conversations between school officials about the future of college athletics they want and see the current NCAA model as failed. Rather than risk scholarship losses and other penalties they’d rather take it to court as needed for clarification.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I don’t think the NCAA left Tennessee with any other choice. They were looking to hit Tennessee with bogus recruiting violations which would have set UT back years. I think the lawsuit against the NCAA was the only avenue to prove the NCAA was wrong. If the NCAA hadn’t gone after Nico’s recruitment, then that lawsuit isn’t filed yet. Probably inevitable but maybe from a different school.

Outside of that, I’d guess there has been conversations between school officials about the future of college athletics they want and see the current NCAA model as failed. Rather than risk scholarship losses and other penalties they’d rather take it to court as needed for clarification.

We used NIL for recruiting Nico. We just did and EVERY school was doing it. No doubt about that. Yes, the NCAA came after us but be that as it may, it destroyed NIL enforcement.

Then we joined the multi transfer lawsuit with several states and the DOJ to make recruiting and re-recruiting a necessity.

That doesn't sound like a group that gives a dang about college traditions. That sounds like a group that is ready to adapt to the next iteration of "college" football and win with it, even if it means creating an essentially pro sports franchise in Knoxville.

The fans need to follow that lead or get left behind.

 

[TheDeeble]

We used NIL for recruiting Nico. We just did and EVERY school was doing it. No doubt about that. Yes, the NCAA came after us but be that as it may, it destroyed NIL enforcement.

Then we joined the multi transfer lawsuit with several states and the DOJ to make recruiting and re-recruiting a necessity.

That doesn't sound like a group that gives a dang about college traditions. That sounds like a group that is ready to adapt to the next iteration of "college" football and win with it, even if it means creating an essentially pro sports franchise in Knoxville.

The fans need to follow that lead or get left behind.

Yea I know NIL was used. But at the time he was recruited the only NIL rule in the books from the NCAA was the school and its employees couldn’t be the one paying NIL. I don’t think the rules on collectives were added until after Nico signed. I also don’t think the NCAA foresaw the collective model having the influence it did and wanted to use Tennessee as an example for their new rules on collectives. Come down hard on us so other schools might be hesitant about collaborating with collectives.

As for joining the lawsuit, your comments are exactly what I meant. The people filing lawsuits are doing so to take football in the direction of their choosing.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Yea I know NIL was used. But at the time he was recruited the only NIL rule in the books from the NCAA was the school and its employees couldn’t be the one paying NIL. I don’t think the rules on collectives were added until after Nico signed. I also don’t think the NCAA foresaw the collective model having the influence it did and wanted to use Tennessee as an example for their new rules on collectives. Come down hard on us so other schools might be hesitant about collaborating with collectives.

As for joining the lawsuit, your comments are exactly what I meant. The people filing lawsuits are doing so to take football in the direction of their choosing.

Yes, and UT has been extremely aggressive in telling the NCAA that there are VERY few, if any, enforceable NIL rules the NCAA can make. That means it's a free-for-all.

When WV started the multi-transfer without penalty lawsuit, TN was right there to support it. Again, support for the free-for-all.

And we're winning. UT is doing it "right" by helping tear down the old traditions.

As a fan, I can't argue with the success from Danny White and Co in several sports and in showing how to have success in the middle of a free-for-all.

We just need to get on board, support the Vol Club, and let them win as it changes.

 

[TheDeeble]

And we're winning. UT is doing it "right" by helping tear down the old traditions.
.

Maybe they see a benefit of being at the forefront of change? If you’re one of the first to adapt it will give you an advantage over most everyone else that have to react to the change.

Beats me.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Maybe they see a benefit of being at the forefront of change? If you’re one of the first to adapt it will give you an advantage over most everyone else that have to react to the change.

Beats me.

I agree. I don't necessarily like it but I can't argue with the success.

I'm left with watching lesser talented football with much less TV coverage vs some kind of not quite amateur, not quite pro highly televised football.

I like football. I really like good, well coached, well disciplined football. I've seen a lot of traditions change, mostly for the worse, but they changed anyway.

An old physics professor once told me: you can't stop the world from changing, it's got a lot of momentum.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Only one way out if the schools want to avoid Title IX for the supersports.

Make them employees. Dispense with the act. If the purpose is no longer educational, but purely a for-profit commercial enterprise, then it wouldn’t be about opportunity anymore. Just money.

That will, of course, completely erase any semblance of “college” in major DI college football or college basketball. It will be ridiculously absurd. But hear tell, most people seem to think that doesn’t matter anyway.

No, it won't. Are the UT Police any less "UT" because they are cops? Are the maintenance staff any less college plumbers or mechanics because they aren't students? How about the housekeeping and food staff? Vendors at Neyland and Thompson-Boling?

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

You solve one problem but then create another. The tax exempt status of institutions that are funded with taxpayer money. You can’t be a non-profit educational institution and a for profit sports business entity at the same time. It’s going to take a while for all these issues to get sorted out and probably more lawsuits.

Nothing keeps nonprofits from making money. They simply have to plow any profits in excess of costs back into the business.

That also includes being able to pay top leaders lots of money, like the American Red Cross does. Lots of examples of that.

https://www.charitywatch.org/nonprofit-compensation-packages-of-1-million-or-more