Obama's Final Betrayal

#77
#77
@sjt:

I provided all the data, and the real world says your ideology just ain't so. Republicans have ALWAYS increased debt relative to GDP. That's what y'all have been complaining about, and that's what happens. If you want to pee and moan, then elect Democrats, as the trend consistently goes down then.

I have probably forgotten more about wealth creation than the majority of posters on VN know. Perhaps not you, sjt, but certainly the vast, vast majority. I deal every waking hour in the real world economy, and I am certainly an able captain on its waters.

Taxes never inhibit wealth creation; taxes, when used properly with authentic democracy, raise all boats. Markets, by the way, REQUIRE sound government.
 
#80
#80
utgibbs said:
If used properly, taxes raise all boats (unlike Supply Side failures).

Taxes NEVER / EVER diminish wealth creation.
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My 5 year old has figured out that if she is trying to stockpile candy that was given to her, and I make her give her sister half of what she has, I have diminished her wealth or candy.
 
#81
#81
BigPapaVol said:
Saying this repeatedly doesn't change the idiocy of it.
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I'm quite fond of the socialist military, actually.

Taxes NEVER / EVER affect wealth creation. That's a maxim every entrepreneur knows and knows well.
 
#82
#82
BeecherVol said:
My 5 year old has figured out that if she is trying to stockpile candy that was given to her, and I make her give her sister half of what she has, I have diminished her wealth or candy.
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That's not wealth creation. That is more or less what the majority of wage earners face right now. And if you are discussing the unfairness of the current tax structure, I'm with you brother.

Since no one is going to rise to the challenge, I'll give you Adam Smith's maxims:

1. Simple

2. Transparent

3. Progressive

I call it STP for short. Essentials for essential tax collection.
 
#83
#83
utgibbs said:
That's not wealth creation.

If you are discussing the unfairness of the current tax structure, I'm with you brother.

Since no one is going to rise to the challenge, I'll give you Adam Smith's maxims:

1. Simple

2. Transparent

3. Progressive

I call it STP for short. Essentials for essential tax collection.
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Depends on how you look at.

Taxes in general prohibit maximum wealth. The more taxes you pay on the dollar the less wealth you have.

It may not be what creates the wealth in ever case, but it sure can diminish it. Running a small business brings this to light.
 
#84
#84
utgibbs said:
I'm quite fond of the socialist military, actually.

Taxes NEVER / EVER affect wealth creation. That's a maxim every entrepreneur knows and knows well.
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This is again stupid as all hell. You apparently wouldn't know entrepreneurial risk from a billy goat.
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#85
#85
A Billy goat could be compared to the government and taxes however.

Both eat everything in sight.
 
#86
#86
utgibbs said:
Unlike your assessment, he has waffled and capitulated on health care, bailouts, taxes, the environment, and a host of other policies ad infinitum. He has rejected majority opinion in order to placate the tiniest minorities.

He has done a far better job instituting Republican style programs than the Republicans. I can't help but wonder if Sarah Palin is a design to actually get rid of the Republican party once and for all. The Democrats do it better, as they say.
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The President shouldn't be underestimated. But I think his gamble was incorrectly assessed by the President and his staff. They attempted to piece together legislation to convey that he was reaching across party lines, and as if he following some perverse idea of utilitarianism. No matter what he does, Republicans, particularly those on the far right will possess hatred for the man. Simply attempting to appease the Republican base only angers his own, loyal base.
 
#89
#89
bam15 said:
The President shouldn't be underestimated. But I think his gamble was incorrectly assessed by the President and his staff. They attempted to piece together legislation to convey that he was reaching across party lines, and as if he following some perverse idea of utilitarianism. No matter what he does, Republicans, particularly those on the far right will possess hatred for the man. Simply attempting to appease the Republican base only angers his own, loyal base.
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I think you make it more personal than it is. The conservative base to which you're attributing hatred doesn't approach politics from an emotional standpoint. They simply hate that an empty suit of the ridiculous political bent Obama reigns from can have the bully pulpit and push socialist dogma as better for Americans.
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#90
#90
bam15 said:
The President shouldn't be underestimated. But I think his gamble was incorrectly assessed by the President and his staff. They attempted to piece together legislation to convey that he was reaching across party lines, and as if he following some perverse idea of utilitarianism. No matter what he does, Republicans, particularly those on the far right will possess hatred for the man. Simply attempting to appease the Republican base only angers his own, loyal base.
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Thats simple politics that happens on both sides, right or wrong.

The voters rejected him 2 months ago, and now he is chasing his tail trying to catch some favor again. His base is pissed because he is trying to do so.

After 4 years this will boil down to what the country thinks about him, at this point he is a "lame duck".
 
#91
#91
BigPapaVol said:
I think you make it more personal than it is. The conservative base to which you're attributing hatred doesn't approach politics from an emotional standpoint. They simply hate that an empty suit of the ridiculous political bent Obama reigns from can have the bully pulpit and push socialist dogma as better for Americans.
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I'm not attempting to throw a blanket statement on the conservative base, but, I've seen very sincere contempt for the President. Regardless of what the bill entitles, the right would find something wrong with it, as we have seen in the last few days. Effectively, the right is being stubborn to the core in regards to the bill, while the left is being bullied around by the President. He is essentially angering his own base while attempting to appease Republicans in a lost cause (i.e.) Republicans could care less on tax rates if unemployment benefits are extended, and Democrats are open to compromise, but would much rather tax rates be raised. Hence, no fire in the belly, (pissing off everyone).

:lol:.
 
#93
#93
BigPapaVol said:
I think you make it more personal than it is. The conservative base to which you're attributing hatred doesn't approach politics from an emotional standpoint. They simply hate that an empty suit of the ridiculous political bent Obama reigns from can have the bully pulpit and push socialist dogma as better for Americans.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Correct. It comes down to a simple question. Who does the money belong to?

I'd love to see a President run strictly on the ideology of wealth redistribution. How far do you think that would go?
 
#94
#94
BeecherVol said:
Depends on how you look at.

Taxes in general prohibit maximum wealth. The more taxes you pay on the dollar the less wealth you have.

It may not be what creates the wealth in ever case, but it sure can diminish it. Running a small business brings this to light.
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I'm not even sure what that means.

Certainly I am all for ensuring the tax burden is spread fairly. It is not right now, and I agree, undue burden is placed on small businesses in order to subsidize and ensure corporations / top 0.1% do not have to pay taxes.
 
#95
#95
BeecherVol said:
Thats simple politics that happens on both sides, right or wrong.

The voters rejected him 2 months ago, and now he is chasing his tail trying to catch some favor again. His base is pissed because he is trying to do so.

After 4 years this will boil down to what the country thinks about him, at this point he is a "lame duck".
Click to expand...

I don't think the voters rejected him because of spending, as many would frame it. A great deal of people could really care less about politics. If the economy is flourishing, everything is okay, if it is not, your time is running out.

He's attempting to slide to the middle, but I'm almost the point of thinking it won't work. He's really doing nothing to his own benefit, which in calculation by the White House was exactly what he wanted to convey. The only problem, is I think this will backfire.
 
#96
#96
utgibbs said:
If used properly, taxes raise all boats (unlike Supply Side failures).
Click to expand...
JFK in proposing broad tax cuts in particular for the investment class... said that.

You have yet to substantiate a single supply side failure. Supply side isn't the complete answer... but a good start.

Taxes NEVER / EVER diminish wealth creation.
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Taxes ALWAYS take capital from those who would create wealth with it and redistribute it to those who mainly consume it. It almost ALWAYS diminishes wealth creation. The only exceptions are those few things gov't does to facilitate an open and lawful marketplace or "infrastructure" like roads and rail.
 
#97
#97
Lexvol said:
Correct. It comes down to a simple question. Who does the money belong to?

I'd love to see a President run strictly on the ideology of wealth redistribution. How far do you think that would go?
Click to expand...

I think you are seeing a touch of that now, along with the response.
 
#98
#98
bam15 said:
The President shouldn't be underestimated. But I think his gamble was incorrectly assessed by the President and his staff. They attempted to piece together legislation to convey that he was reaching across party lines, and as if he following some perverse idea of utilitarianism. No matter what he does, Republicans, particularly those on the far right will possess hatred for the man. Simply attempting to appease the Republican base only angers his own, loyal base.
Click to expand...

His election was a Maverick moment.

I'm somewhere to the Left of Gandhi, but I certainly appreciate a good effort in trying to educate / realign / reassert the values of the Enlightenment even if it isn't going to swing to my side of the ruler (to whit: I think I would support a flat tax, despite it being regressive, if only to realign the conversation and get it back to a modicum of actual common sense).

However, even I believe Obama has eschewed his Maverick moment.
 
#99
#99
Lexvol said:
Correct. It comes down to a simple question. Who does the money belong to?

I'd love to see a President run strictly on the ideology of wealth redistribution. How far do you think that would go?
Click to expand...

Well, we have funnelled about 3 trillion (1/3 or so of GDP) Citibank et al. in the latest Quantitative Easing (#2)

That's REAL wealth redistribution. Everyone seems to approve. Everyone likes funnelling money to the top of failed businesses, it seems.
 
#100
#100
bam15 said:
I don't think the voters rejected him because of spending, as many would frame it. A great deal of people could really care less about politics. If the economy is flourishing, everything is okay, if it is not, your time is running out.

He's attempting to slide to the middle, but I'm almost the point of thinking it won't work. He's really doing nothing to his own benefit, which in calculation by the White House was exactly what he wanted to convey. The only problem, is I think this will backfire.
Click to expand...

I agree that most could care less about the politics side, and in my case that is what screws up a lot this.

I disagree about the public not rejected his policies, which brought about a lot of spending. IMO there were more that vote against what he did, instead of what he hasn't done.

At this point Im not sure what he could do. He's chopping off somebody no matter which way he goes politically. Which is driving his current decisions.
 
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