Oh no he didn't!

#51
#51
And if you do, then I would rather argue with a brick wall. I can understand how some could have bought that up front, it was a pretty convincing argument, albeit a complete lie, but if you still hold to the belief that lives in America were saved by the conflict, then I feel for you.

Whether that was part of the decision to invade Iraq or not, the fact is, that was not the reason the American people were led to believe we were going over there.
That, in and of itself, is reason for outrage.
be outraged. That in no way changes the fact that the WMD platform was but a very small part of the decision to invade Iraq. It was the most palatable to the American public and thus oversold. Regardless, to assume that we haven't stopped the reconstitution of the programs Hussein had already shown is very shortsighted. Overlooking the remainder of the reasons we're there is just overly simplistic.

I don't mind that you'd prefer a brick wall, just be very clear the reasons you're stuck arguing with one.
 
#52
#52
Don't forget the pre-war situation. Iraq was violating UN Resolutions left and right. While no WMD were found, even dissenters in the UN fully believe he would reconstitute his WMD programs. This was becoming increasingly likely given the efforts to reduce UN sanctions - partially driven by the beneficiaries of the Oil for Food boondoggle. Iraq shot at US planes on a daily basis.

Good post. All legitimate and cited reasons to take action in Iraq.

The problem I have with the Bush administration was WMD's, the "War on Terror" (whatever that is), and post9/11 reactionary fear were used to close the deal. Again, "Shock Doctrine" at work. Despite the other legitimate reasons for going into Iraq, no way we would be there now without 911 and the "War on Terror".

I think BPV has a point with the strategic importance of establishing a presence there. I just don't like the "ends justify the means" rationality of it all. History may very well judge this as a huge strategic success if we create a long-term alliance, but I seriously doubt the way it all went down beforehand will be judged in any positive light.
 
#53
#53
I think BPV has a point with the strategic importance of establishing a presence there. I just don't like the "ends justify the means" rationality of it all. History may judge this as a huge success, but I seriously doubt the way it all went down beforehand will be judged in any positive light.
It wasn't ends justify the means for me in any way. I believe we should have been in the middle of Iraq long before we finally were. We had multiple reasons to be there and invaded legitimately. The fact that many don't agree with the reasoning sold to the public doesn't change any of that. It was to some degree disingenuous, but the vast majority of the world, including the intelligence community fully believed the WMD reason as well. Most would still tell you that there was a program and plans to reconstitute the program were in full swing.
 
#54
#54
be outraged. That in no way changes the fact that the WMD platform was but a very small part of the decision to invade Iraq. It was the most palatable to the American public and thus oversold. Regardless, to assume that we haven't stopped the reconstitution of the programs Hussein had already shown is very shortsighted. Overlooking the remainder of the reasons we're there is just overly simplistic.

I don't mind that you'd prefer a brick wall, just be very clear the reasons you're stuck arguing with one.
Oh, I am very clear. You have bought into all the BS that the Bush camp has sold to the American public. I have not. That's the difference. Your support of a fruitless war is blind. I choose to make up my own mind and not buy into all the crap that we are being told. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but it doesn't mean it is the correct one. Just so we're clear on that.
 
#55
#55
Oh, I am very clear. You have bought into all the BS that the Bush camp has sold to the American public. I have not. That's the difference. Your support of a fruitless war is blind. I choose to make up my own mind and not buy into all the crap that we are being told. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but it doesn't mean it is the correct one. Just so we're clear on that.
If you're really basing your thoughts on my viewpoint in some charade about my buying into Bush's rhetoric, you couldn't be more wrong. Further, pretending that you haven't bought into the drivel being bandied about by the greater media is just senseless.
 
#56
#56
Good post. All legitimate and cited reasons to take action in Iraq.

The problem I have with the Bush administration was WMD's, the "War on Terror" (whatever that is), and post9/11 reactionary fear were used to close the deal. Again, "Shock Doctrine" at work. Despite the other legitimate reasons for going into Iraq, no way we would be there now without 911 and the "War on Terror".

I think BPV has a point with the strategic importance of establishing a presence there. I just don't like the "ends justify the means" rationality of it all. History may very well judge this as a huge strategic success if we create a long-term alliance, but I seriously doubt the way it all went down beforehand will be judged in any positive light.

I think reactionary fear or Shock Doctrine is used by every administration in an attempt to push through an agenda. The space race was Shock Doctrine. Any attempt to solve Social Security will have to be Shock Doctrine, Green house gas reductions plans will use Shock Doctrine (Kyoto for example) etc.

I'm not trying to justify the Iraq war but I don't think there's anything particularly unusual about how it came about in terms of how major policy initiatives are pushed.
 
#57
#57
I think reactionary fear or Shock Doctrine is used by every administration in an attempt to push through an agenda. The space race was Shock Doctrine. Any attempt to solve Social Security will have to be Shock Doctrine, Green house gas reductions plans will use Shock Doctrine (Kyoto for example) etc.

I'm not trying to justify the Iraq war but I don't think there's anything particularly unusual about how it came about in terms of how major policy initiatives are pushed.

liberals have been using shock doctrine for years. how many time have heard that senior citizens will die if we elect republican congressmen, senators or presidence? how many time have libs said that kids will starve in schools if we elect conservatives.

libs have been using this to scare people for years. republicans may use it, but i think they projected stats to back it up. 9/11 actually happened for those who forgot, and there were 6 other attacks on the US prior to 9/11. (either at home or in other countries)

libs use assumptions and lies to scare people, they've been doing years before the republicans.
 
#59
#59
I think reactionary fear or Shock Doctrine is used by every administration in an attempt to push through an agenda. The space race was Shock Doctrine. Any attempt to solve Social Security will have to be Shock Doctrine, Green house gas reductions plans will use Shock Doctrine (Kyoto for example) etc.

I'm not trying to justify the Iraq war but I don't think there's anything particularly unusual about how it came about in terms of how major policy initiatives are pushed.

Shock Docrtine postulates that a singular or short term, traumatic event causes a collective reaction of the populate to allow dramatic change in policy. I just don't see that with greenhouse emissions or social security. Both are gradual issues that most don't even think about everyday, generally. It's like not noticing somebody you see everyday needs a haircut until they actually get one.

With Iraq, I do think it was unusual how it only went down after 911, of which Saddam had nothing to do with. The nebulus "War on Terror" provided a blanket to sell his case. If Bush was competent in the least he could have sold the case to go in Iraq for the aforementioned reasons you cited above. And who knows, maybe he would have eventually without 911. But using 911 as a cover to push his Iraq agenda through was was wrong.

I don't necessarily think Iraq was a mistake. Saddam needed to be dealt with, that is a fact. But I am certainly opposed to how 911 was used to formulate this policy. I also don't agree that there was wholesale agreement on the WMD issue. Bob Woodward and Ron Suskinds books details very clearly the attrition that went on in the intelligence community by the Bush, Rumsfield, and Cheney to get the intel they needed. This administration has classified and de-classified more documents than any other administration in history. Where there is smoke, fire usually follows, and one has to wonder how much of this was done for political purposes and how much was done for legitimate security reasons.
 
#60
#60
Shock Docrtine postulates that a singular or short term, traumatic event causes a collective reaction of the populate to allow dramatic change in policy. I just don't see that with greenhouse emissions or social security. Both are gradual issues that most don't even think about everyday, generally. It's like not noticing somebody you see everyday needs a haircut until they actually get one.

With Iraq, I do think it was unusual how it only went down after 911, of which Saddam had nothing to do with. The nebulus "War on Terror" provided a blanket to sell his case. If Bush was competent in the least he could have sold the case to go in Iraq for the aforementioned reasons you cited above. And who knows, maybe he would have eventually without 911. But using 911 as a cover to push his Iraq agenda through was was wrong.

I don't necessarily think Iraq was a mistake. Saddam needed to be dealt with, that is a fact. But I am certainly opposed to how 911 was used to formulate this policy. I also don't agree that there was wholesale agreement on the WMD issue. Bob Woodward and Ron Suskinds books details very clearly the attrition that went on in the intelligence community by the Bush, Rumsfield, and Cheney to get the intel they needed. This administration has classified and de-classified more documents than any other administration in history. Where there is smoke, fire usually follows, and one has to wonder how much of this was done for political purposes and how much was done for legitimate security reasons.

Hello we have been hauling out yellow cake for several years!
 
#61
#61
Oh, I am very clear. You have bought into all the BS that the Bush camp has sold to the American public. I have not. That's the difference. Your support of a fruitless war is blind. I choose to make up my own mind and not buy into all the crap that we are being told. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but it doesn't mean it is the correct one. Just so we're clear on that.


It comes down to what your definition of a WMD is. If you were expecting us to go in and find functional nuclear weapons with a means of delivery then you were bound to be disappointed.

WMDs have a much broader definition and Iraq most definitely had them.
 
#62
#62
It comes down to what your definition of a WMD is. If you were expecting us to go in and find functional nuclear weapons with a means of delivery then you were bound to be disappointed.

WMDs have a much broader definition and Iraq most definitely had them.

750 tons of yellow cake!
 
#63
#63
There were no WMD's in Iraq.

Ask the Kurds, if you don't believe me.

OOPS! That's right. Saddam gassed most of them to death. Good thing that gas doesn't count as a WMD.
 
#64
#64
There were no WMD's in Iraq.

Ask the Kurds, if you don't believe me.

OOPS! That's right. Saddam gassed most of them to death. Good thing that gas doesn't count as a WMD.

I just get frustrated when some people think chemical and biological weapons don't count as WMDs.
 
#70
#70
we should put a few candles on it and send it over for Ahmadinejad's birthday
 
#72
#72
IMO, everyone is missing the point. Its not whether Bush is or is not like Lincoln in any respect. Its that he excuses or explains away the criticism by saying every president faces it, including invoking by example Abraham Lincoln.

The most fundamental criticism -- and I heard it last night from even conservative commentators -- is the absolute resentment of the Bush adminiustration for any point of view or voice outside of their previously-agreed to view of the world. Perfect example: Even when the evidence wasn't there on WMD, his regret is in not finding it, not that maybe it was never there to begin with.

IMO, in today's world, it is absoultely imperative that we have an intellectually honest government. One that is not afraid to make a bold decision, but equally willing when circumstances change to change with it. And that is about the last thing Bush was willing to do.
 
#73
#73
IMO, everyone is missing the point. Its not whether Bush is or is not like Lincoln in any respect. Its that he excuses or explains away the criticism by saying every president faces it, including invoking by example Abraham Lincoln.

The most fundamental criticism -- and I heard it last night from even conservative commentators -- is the absolute resentment of the Bush adminiustration for any point of view or voice outside of their previously-agreed to view of the world. Perfect example: Even when the evidence wasn't there on WMD, his regret is in not finding it, not that maybe it was never there to begin with.

IMO, in today's world, it is absoultely imperative that we have an intellectually honest government. One that is not afraid to make a bold decision, but equally willing when circumstances change to change with it. And that is about the last thing Bush was willing to do.
Think maybe he has reason to regret not finding it? My guess would be that he knows more than he can say and that what he does know about the situation might surprise you.

I think this is just another case of LG likes to read between the lines, even for things not there, on anything Republican and ignore the other side of the coin.
 
#74
#74
Think maybe he has reason to regret not finding it? My guess would be that he knows more than he can say and that what he does know about the situation might surprise you.

I think this is just another case of LG likes to read between the lines, even for things not there, on anything Republican and ignore the other side of the coin.


You don't think that almost five years later, and given the worldwide cricisim, if there was WMD, they'd have figured out a way to let us know? At leats claim there was some but it cannot be disclosed at this point? I mean Cheney flat out says there was none.

You say I'm reading between the lines. You are just flat out making stuff up.
 

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