Ozzie Smith -vs- Ryne Sandberg

#26
#26
So Ozzie Smith was a better baseball player than Alex Rodriguez and Honus Wagner? I have to meet these people.
 
#27
#27
Dbake005 said:
So Ozzie Smith was a better baseball player than Alex Rodriguez and Honus Wagner? I have to meet these people.
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I've never seen a GOAT list with Arod at SS. Not on ESPN, Fox Sports, MLB network, SI etc. I've seen that almost always the position is filled with Ozzie's name.
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#29
#29
VolBeef88 said:
I've never seen a GOAT list with Arod at SS. Not on ESPN, Fox Sports, MLB network, SI etc. I've seen that almost always the position is filled with Ozzie's name.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Here you go.


Alltime All-Star Team
Who would you rather have? Mays or Clemente? Spahn or the Big Unit? Bench or Piazza? SI polled a 22-man panel of experts to fill its dream roster. The result is a work of art
Posted: Tuesday October 3, 2006 12:22PM; Updated: Thursday October 5, 2006 10:19AM

• Click here to tell us whom you would add or delete from the team.
• Click here for a gallery of amazing images from The Baseball Book.
• Click here to assemble your own Dream Team in our interactive poll.


ALLTIME ALL-STAR TEAM
John McGraw, MANAGER
2,763-1,948 IN 34 SEASONS
Second-most wins by a manager, three World Series titles
Joe McCarthy, COACH
2,125-1,333 IN 24 SEASONS
Seven World Series titles
Casey Stengel, COACH
1,905-1,842 IN 25 SEASONS
Seven World Series titles
Warren Spahn, PITCHER
363 WINS, 20-GAME WINNER 13 TIMES
Most wins by a lefty, 1957 Cy Young Award
Lou Gehrig, FIRST BASEMAN
.340 AVG., 493 HOMERS, 1,995 RBIS
TWO-TIME MVP (1927, '36)
Dennis Eckersley, PITCHER
390 SAVES, 197 WINS
Last pitcher to win MVP (1992)
Lefty Grove, PITCHER
300 WINS, .680 WIN PCT.
Nine ERA titles, seven strikeout titles
Yogi Berra, CATCHER
358 HOMERS, 15 ALL-STAR GAMES
Three-time MVP (1951, '54, '55)
Jackie Robinson, SECOND BASE
.311 AVG., .409 OBP
Broke modern MLB color barrier, 1949 MVP
Joe DiMaggio, OUTFIELD
.325 AVG., 56-GAME HITTING STREAK
Three-time MVP (1939, '41, '47)
Mariano Rivera, PITCHER
413 SAVES, 0.81 POSTSEASON ERA
Alltime postseason saves leader (34)
Stan Musial, FIRST BASE
.331 AVG., 475 HOMERS, 1,951 RBIS
THREE-TIME MVP (1943, '46, '48)
Roger Clemens, PITCHER
348 WINS, 4,604 STRIKEOUTS
Seven Cy Youngs (1986, '87, '91, '97, '98, 2001, '04)
Cy Young, PITCHER
511 WINS, 30-GAME WINNER FIVE TIMES
Winningest pitcher in baseball history
Ted Williams, OUTFIELD
.344 AVG., .482 OBP, 521 HOMERS
Two-time MVP (1946, '49)
Ty Cobb, OUTFIELD
.366 AVG., 4,189 HITS, 892 STEALS
Second-most hits in baseball history
Christy Mathewson, PITCHER
373 WINS, 2.13 ERA
Won 30 games four times (1903, '04, 05, '08)
Sandy Koufax, PITCHER
.655 WIN PCT., 0.95 POSTSEASON ERA
Three Cy Youngs (1963, '65, '66), 1963 MVP
Rogers Hornsby, SECOND BASE
.358 AVG., HIT .400 THREE TIMES
Two-time Triple Crown winner (1922, '25)
Babe Ruth, OUTFIELD
.342 AVG., 714 HOMERS
Led majors in homers 11 times
Willie Mays, OUTFIELD
660 HOMERS, 12 GOLD GLOVES
Two-time MVP (1954, '65)
Walter Johnson, PITCHER
417 WINS, 3,509 STRIKEOUTS
Won 20 games 12 times, 30 games twice
Mickey Mantle, OUTFIELD
536 HOMERS, 1,509 RBIS
THREE-TIME MVP (1956, '57, '62)
Honus Wagner, SHORTSTOP
3,420 HITS, 723 STEALS
One of original five Hall of Famers
Hank Aaron, OUTFIELD
755 HOMERS, 3,771 HITS
Alltime home run king, 1957 MVP
Johnny Bench, CATCHER
389 HOMERS, 10 GOLD GLOVES
Two-time MVP (1970, '72)
Mike Schmidt, THIRD BASE
548 HOMERS, 10 GOLD GLOVES
Three-time MVP (1980, '81, '86)
Alex Rodriguez, SHORTSTOP
464 HOMERS, 1,347 RBIS
TWO-TIME MVP (2003, '05)
With its diligence and reverence for record keeping, baseball is often held up as an exact science. Ted Williams chose to play on the last day of the 1941 season because .39955 -- his batting average that morning -- was not actually .400. The discovery in 1977 of an overlooked RBI for Hack Wilson in his record 1930 season was akin to scientists finding a new element, and thus made sacred the number 191.

Yet so visceral is the appeal of the game that it also moves poets as much as it does mathematicians. "Poets," Robert Frost once exclaimed, "are like baseball pitchers. Both have their moments. The intervals are the tough things."

Baseball, in fact, is a good workout for both sides of your brain, which is why a bar stool has always been just as handy as a calculator when trying to figure out the game. Just ask us. We tried.

SI set out to pick an alltime All-Star team -- 25 players (seven starting pitchers, two relievers, two catchers, seven infielders and seven outfielders), one manager and two coaches -- by polling 22 expert writers, editors and analysts, including Bill James, Peter Gammons and more than a dozen current and former SI staffers.

What we wound up with was something much like Aaron Goodman's photo illustration on these pages: a fascinating blend of art and science. It's why the alltime leader in hits and the heir apparent to the alltime leader in home runs didn't make the cut. Pete Rose, for all his singles and manic drive, simply wasn't better than any of the outfielders or infielders on the dream team. (His gambling on baseball as Reds manager had no impact on this voter's opinion.) Barry Bonds, because of how his freakish late-career production has been linked to the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs, has numbers that are not to be believed.

Such is the nature of baseball that the omission of some players from this roster is certain to provoke cries of despair, so let me throw out the first bawl: Warren Spahn over Randy Johnson? Please. The Unit blows away Spahnnie in most important pitching metrics as well as the rather less sophisticated playground test: If I were a captain choosing up sides, I'd pick Johnson (truth be told, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez too) before I picked Spahn.

Likewise, the catching selections, Yogi Berra and Johnny Bench, are a little too traditional for my taste. Where are Josh Gibson, whose Ruthian prowess should not be diminished for having played in the Negro leagues when the major leagues wouldn't have him, and Mike Piazza, whose unequaled offense at the position more than makes up for his weak arm?

But, hey, that's just me. You're likely to find your own beef in what you see (and don't) in the greatest team picture of all time. A great baseball argument, and this one is mammoth, generates more disagreement than resolution. Such eternal debate is why message boards, watering holes and outfield bleachers exist.

Now, about the batting order that manager John McGraw should use for this team....

-- Tom Verducci
 
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#30
#30
VolBeef88 said:
I have not seen the same lists you're speaking of. I watch a TON of baseball and MLB network is a channel most likely to be on my TV. I've seen list after list of position by position and almost always Ozzie is slotted at SS.
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Ever watch Prime 9 on MLB Network where they rank the all time greatest?

Prime 9's Rules to this List.
Played 1000 games at SS since 1901 (Modern Era) – Not just defense but also offense, speed.

#9. Luke Appling
2200+ games at SS for the White Sox
.310 Career AVG.
First AL SS to win a batting title.
1936 – .388 Batting Avg – Highest ever for a SS
Hit a home run in the seniors game in 1982 at age 75.

#8 – Barry Larkin
1995 MVP in the NL
12 time all-star Short Stop
1986 33 HRs and 36 SB
First 30-30 Short stop in baseball
9 Silver Slugger awards

#7. Derek Jeter
5 WS titles
Only man to be named MVP of the all-star game and WS.
Six 200 hit seasons through 2008- Most ever by a shortstop.

#6. Joseph “Arky” Vaughan
.385 AVG in 1935
First 20 years with the pirated, he hit over .300.
Second Highest batting AVG for SS at .318 career Avg.
2100 Hits

#5. Ozzie Smith
13 Gold Gloves (in a row), most total ever for a short stop.
2400+ Hits

#4. Ernie “Mr. Cub” Banks
First short stop ever to hit 40 HRs a season, did it 5 times in 6 years.
First NL Player to win Back-to-Back MVP Awards

#3. Cal Ripken Jr.
All Time HR shortop leader with 345.
Tired of typing in his thousands of awesome stats.

#2. Alex Rodriguez
344 HRs at Short Stop
1996 .358 AVG Led the league
176 bases stolen at Short Stop
1 of 3 players to be in the 40-40 club
2 Gold Gloves
2001-2003 With Texas Averaged 52 hrs AND 132 RBIs
Youngest player to hit 500 HRs

#1. Honus Wagner
Led League in Stolen Bases 5 times.
8 batting titles.
Batted .300 for over 17 straight years
All-Time Top – 120 Hits (3415), Doubles (640), Triples (252) Steals (722)
1 of 5 original members to the Hall Fame and had same number of votes as Babe Ruth.
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#31
#31
Hell, I have seen Sandberg in the top ten of a lot of 2b lists, and you could make a pretty good argument that 2b has been a stronger position throughout baseball history.
 
#34
#34
slh1089 said:
Wow, y'all just laid it on beef.
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How? Because they found a couple lists that didn't have him closer to #1? Do you know how many lists like this get done every year?

I stand by what I've said. I think it's foolish to say either Sandberg or Ozzie are a mile better than the other.

Now Sandberg was one of the biggest pricks to play the game and he was a bigger prick my a mile.
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#35
#35
VolBeef88 said:
Now Sandberg was one of the biggest pricks to play the game and he was a bigger prick my a mile.
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From what I've heard, that point is unarguable. Plus, Ozzie Smith is supposed to be one of the nicest guys ever.
 
#36
#36
VolBeef88 said:
How? Because they found a couple lists that didn't have him closer to #1? Do you know how many lists like this get done every year?

I stand by what I've said. I think it's foolish to say either Sandberg or Ozzie are a mile better than the other.

Now Sandberg was one of the biggest pricks to play the game and he was a bigger prick my a mile.
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Aren't you a cards fan? Oh yeah. That explains it.
 
#38
#38
VolBeef88 said:
How? Because they found a couple lists that didn't have him closer to #1? Do you know how many lists like this get done every year?

I stand by what I've said. I think it's foolish to say either Sandberg or Ozzie are a mile better than the other.

Now Sandberg was one of the biggest pricks to play the game and he was a bigger prick my a mile.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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They have at least shown a list...
 
#39
#39
VolBeef88 said:
How? Because they found a couple lists that didn't have him closer to #1? Do you know how many lists like this get done every year?

I stand by what I've said. I think it's foolish to say either Sandberg or Ozzie are a mile better than the other.

Now Sandberg was one of the biggest pricks to play the game and he was a bigger prick my a mile.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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You still stand by saying you've never seen a list from SI that had Arod at SS.


VolBeef88 said:
I've never seen a GOAT list with Arod at SS. Not on ESPN, Fox Sports, MLB network, SI etc. I've seen that almost always the position is filled with Ozzie's name.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...
 
#41
#41
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Aren't you a cards fan? Oh yeah. That explains it.
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Yes I am. What does that have to do with anything? I'm a Vol fan (much bigger than any other team) and I have no issue calling things the way I see it good or bad. I don't get blinded by fandom.
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#42
#42
GAVol said:
From what I've heard, that point is unarguable. Plus, Ozzie Smith is supposed to be one of the nicest guys ever.
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Ozzie is a very good guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him several times. One of my biggest problems with LaRussa was the fight he had with Ozzie. Totally uncalled for and fueld by jealousy IMO.
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#43
#43
VolBeef88 said:
Yes I am. What does that have to do with anything? I'm a Vol fan (much bigger than any other team) and I have no issue calling things the way I see it good or bad. I don't get blinded by fandom.
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Just seems you natural vendetta aginst the Cubs, which I get.. it is a big rivalry. But c'mon lets be real it is hard to not be biased
 
#44
#44
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Just seems you natural vendetta aginst the Cubs, which I get.. it is a big rivalry. But c'mon lets be real it is hard to not be biased
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I'm very much biased against the Cubs and for the Cards. But I can look at a player or a team and be honest with myself.
Example is last year I thought the Cards way underachieved in the regular season but then way over achieved in the post season.
IMO the best 2 teams were Boston in the AL and Philly in the NL.
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#45
#45
GAVol said:
Sandberg by a mile. Ozzie's bat was very marginal.
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Virtually same career OBP. Sandberg obviously hit for more power, but Sandberg is one of the more overrated hitters in baseball history, IMO.

Smith was maybe the best defensive SS ever, and was much better on the bases. I think this is a close one.
 
#46
#46
n_huffhines said:
Virtually same career OBP. Sandberg obviously hit for more power, but Sandberg is one of the more overrated hitters in baseball history, IMO.

Smith was maybe the best defensive SS ever, and was much better on the bases. I think this is a close one.
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I guess where I'm coming from is that glove men in the middle infield are a lot easier to come by than guys who can drive the ball.
 
#47
#47
GAVol said:
I guess where I'm coming from is that glove men in the middle infield are a lot easier to come by than guys who can drive the ball.
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True. But we're not talking about "just a glove guy". We're talking about one of the all time greats with a huge range.
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#49
#49
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
"I've never seen a GOAT list with Arod at SS. Not on ESPN, Fox Sports, MLB network, SI etc."
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I said I stand by my statement that the 2 players are close. Re read it.
This was the sentence "
I stand by what I've said. I think it's foolish to say either Sandberg or Ozzie are a mile better than the other.
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