Parent wants textbook banned for dismissing creationism as a biblical myth

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Baby boomer males

:yes:

 

[therealUT]

One of the first stories in the New Testament revolves around Jesus getting lost from his parents, who later found him, in the Temple preaching to the local Pharisees.

Actually, closer to the middle/end of the NT, chronologically: Paul's Epistles, Mark, Matthew, then Luke-Acts.

 

[KiffinKiller]

Why do people think hookers are attractive? I saw some HBO (or showtime - don't remember) special on men that get full or partial sex changes and turn tricks. This was in Hawaii. It made me laugh.

 

[theFallGuy]

Why do people think hookers are attractive? I saw some HBO (or showtime - don't remember) special on men that get full or partial sex changes and turn tricks. This was in Hawaii. It made me laugh.

They aren't very attractive on The Shield.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Why do people think hookers are attractive? I saw some HBO (or showtime - don't remember) special on men that get full or partial sex changes and turn tricks. This was in Hawaii. It made me laugh.

thrill and danger of it

 

[KiffinKiller]

or IRL

 

[OrangeEmpire]

or IRL

irl.....?

 

[tri_vol]

Jesus went to the Temple twice in the Bible. Once to be circumcised (not exactly being indoctrinated) and once he wanders there unbeknownst to his parents and then tells the Rabbis what some of the scriptures actually mean (again, this would go against indoctrination). Synagogues did not exist until after the Temple was destroyed the second time and until then Judaism was a purely temple religion. As a child, Jesus was certainly not sitting through Temple services every week or, most likely, even once a year.

If he read the scripture, which it appears he did, he did so on his own, outside of the temple, and uninfluenced by those who wanted to push a certain religious interpretation of said scripture.

Trut, really surprised at your lack of knowledge on this. Jesus grew up about 60 miles from the temple, so he didn't just wander there one day. His family was in town for a religious festival. Jews went to the temple 3x each year for festivals. If his parents were Jewish, he would have went to the temple frequently.

Additionally, one of his first sermons is in a synagogue in his home town. The entire NT is filled with accounts of involving synagogues well before 70 CE when the temple was destroyed. Synagogues actually began after the temple was destroyed the first time when the Jews returned from captivity around 537 BCE. By the time Jesus was born almost every town had a synagogue. If his parents were making a 3 day journey to the temple 3x/year, they were probably going to the local synagogue.

 

[KiffinKiller]

irl.....?

sry. in real life.

 

[Septic]

I disagree. IN the New Testament there are numerous references to children being around during Jesus' sermons. Do you think the flock of 5,000 that were fed with fish was adult only?

I don't believe that 5,000 people were fed with two fish AT ALL.

 

[therealUT]

Trut, really surprised at your lack of knowledge on this. Jesus grew up about 60 miles from the temple, so he didn't just wander there one day. His family was in town for a religious festival. Jews went to the temple 3x each year for festivals. If his parents were Jewish, he would have went to the temple frequently.

Additionally, one of his first sermons is in a synagogue in his home town. The entire NT is filled with accounts of involving synagogues well before 70 CE when the temple was destroyed. Synagogues actually began after the temple was destroyed the first time when the Jews returned from captivity around 537 BCE. By the time Jesus was born almost every town had a synagogue. If his parents were making a 3 day journey to the temple 3x/year, they were probably going to the local synagogue.

Different type of 'synagogue' and different Hebrew word. Prior to the final destruction, 'synogogue' was simply assembly. These were used for local, communal governance more than anything and they were not used for worship. Instruction and discussion occurred at synogogue only for those about to have their Mitzvah and the adults.

It clearly states in the Gospel that Jesus's family only went to Jerusalem once a year (60 miles was a journey of three to six days depending on the health of those journeying...Joseph was in his nineties) for Passover.

 

[lawgator1]

.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

sry. in real life.

k

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I don't believe that 5,000 people were fed with two fish AT ALL.

the 3000

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Different type of 'synagogue' and different Hebrew word. Prior to the final destruction, 'synogogue' was simply assembly. These were used for local, communal governance more than anything and they were not used for worship. Instruction and discussion occurred at synogogue only for those about to have their Mitzvah and the adults.

It clearly states in the Gospel that Jesus's family only went to Jerusalem once a year (60 miles was a journey of three to six days depending on the health of those journeying...Joseph was in his nineties) for Passover.

This is how I understand it

 

[tri_vol]

Different type of 'synagogue' and different Hebrew word. Prior to the final destruction, 'synogogue' was simply assembly. These were used for local, communal governance more than anything and they were not used for worship. Instruction and discussion occurred at synogogue only for those about to have their Mitzvah and the adults.

It clearly states in the Gospel that Jesus's family only went to Jerusalem once a year (60 miles was a journey of three to six days depending on the health of those journeying...Joseph was in his nineties) for Passover.

so you think they went for passover but not the other 2 festivals just because it's not explicitly stated.

As for the purpose of a synagogue, you seem to either be mistaken or ignoring facts because they don't suit your view.

Catholic Encyclopedia

It was probably during the Babylonian captivity that the synagogue became a national feature of Hebrew worship. Afar from their Temple, the exiled Jews gathered into local meeting-houses for public worship.Sacrifice was denied them; prayer in common was not. The longer their exile from the national altar of sacrifice, the greater became their need of houses of prayer; this need was met by an ever-increasing number of synagogues, scattered throughout the land of exile. From Babylonia this national system of synagogue worship was brought to Jerusalem. That the synagogue dates many generations earlier than Apostolic times, is clear from the authority of St. James: "For Moses of old time [’ek geneon ’archaíon] hath in every city them that preach him in the synagogues, where he is read every sabbath" (Acts 15:21).

Jewish Encyclopedia

Established During the Exile.

The origin of the synagogue, in which the congregation gathered to worship and to receive the religious instruction connected therewith, is wrapped in obscurity. By the time it had become the central institution of Judaism (no period of the history of Israel is conceivable without it), it was already regarded as of ancient origin, dating back to the time of Moses (see Yer. Targ., Ex. xviii. 20 and I Chron. xvi. 39; Pesiḳ. 129b; Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 27; Josephus, "Contra Ap." ii., § 17; Acts xv. 21). The "house of the people" (Jer. xxxix. 8 [Hebr.]) is interpreted, in a midrash cited by Rashi and Ḳimḥi (ad loc.), as referring to the synagogue, and "bet 'amma," the Aramaic form of this phrase, was the popular designation in the second century for the synagogue (Simeon b. Eleazar, in Shab. 32a). The synagogue as a permanent institution originated probably in the period of the Babylonian captivity, when a place for common worship and instruction had become necessary. The great prophet, in the second part of the Book of Isaiah, in applying the phrase "house of prayer" to the Temple to be built at Jerusalem (Isa. lvi. 7 and, according to the very defensible reading of the LXX., also lx. 7), may have used a phrase which, in the time of the Exile, designated the place of united worship; this interpretation is possible, furthermore, in such passages as Isa. lviii. 4. The term was preserved by the Hellenistic Jews as the name for the synagogue (προσευχή = οἶκος προσευχῆς; comp. also the allusion to the "proseucha" in Juvenal, "Satires," iii. 296).

After the return from the Captivity, when the religious life was reorganized, especially under Ezra and his successors, congregational worship, consisting in prayer and the reading of sections from the Bible, developed side by side with the revival of the cult of the Temple at Jerusalem, and thus led to the building of synagogues. The place of meeting was called "bet ha-keneset," since an assembly of the people for worship was termed a "keneset"; the assembly described in Neh. ix.-x. was known in tradition as the "great assembly" ("keneset ha-gedolah"; see Synagoġue, The Great). The synagoguecontinued to be known by this name, although it was called also, briefly, "keneset" (Aramaic, "kanishta"), and, in Greek, συναγωγή.

 

[therealUT]

so you think they went for passover but not the other 2 festivals just because it's not explicitly stated.

1. Because it is not explicitly stated.

2. Because Joseph was over 90 years old and would not have made the journey; Mary certainly would not have made the journey without Joseph or without an old enough Jesus.

As for the purpose of a synagogue, you seem to either be mistaken or ignoring facts because they don't suit your view.

Catholic Encyclopedia



Jewish Encyclopedia

Interesting place to stop, re: Jewish Encyclopedia. I am wondering exactly why you did not choose to continue citing that Encyclopedia:

The synagogues of Palestine are first mentioned in Ps. lxxiv., in which the words "mo'ade el" (verse 8) were interpreted as meaning "synagogue" as early as Aquila, although strictly it connotes merely a place of assembly (comp. "bet mo'ed," Job xxx. 23; "bet wa'ad," Ab. i. 4). Neither of the first two books of the Maccabees, however, mentions the burning of the synagogues of the country during the persecutions by Antiochus. The synagogue in the Temple at Jerusalem is mentioned in halakic tradition (see Yoma vii. 1; Soṭah vii. 7, 8; Tosef., Suk. iv.).

In case you are unaware, these books, which are in the Talmud, were not written until between 200 and 500 CE.

According to one legend, there were 394 synagogues at Jerusalem when the city was destroyed by Titus (Ket. 105), while a second tradition gives the number as 480 (Yer. Meg. 73d et al.). Other passages give the additional information that the foreign Jews at Jerusalem had their own synagogues. Thus there was a synagogue of the Alexandrian Jews (Tosef., Meg. ii.; Yer. Meg. 73d); this synagogue is mentioned in Acts vi. 9 (comp. ix. 29), which refers also to the synagogues of the Cyrenians, Cilicians, and Asiatics. Josephus mentions both the synagogue built by Agrippa I. at Dora ("Ant." xix. 6, § 3) and the great synagogue at Tiberias, in which, during the war against Rome, political meetings were once held on the Sabbath and the following days ("Vita," § 54). The synagogue of Cæarea rose to importance during the inception of this uprising (Josephus, "B. J." ii. 14, §§ 4-5); it was called the "revolutionary synagogue" ("kenishta di-meradta") as late as the fourth century (see Grätz, "Gesch." 2d ed., iv. 313)

The evangelists refer to the synagogues of Nazareth (Matt. xiii. 54; Mark vi. 2; Luke iv. 16) and Capernaum (Mark i. 21; Luke vii. 5; John vi. 59) as places where Jesus taught. There are but few details given in traditional literature concerning the other synagogues of Palestine, although mention is made of those in Beth-shean (Scythopolis; Yer. Meg. 74a), Cæsarea (Yer. Bik. 65d; see above), Kefar Tiberias (Pesiḳ. R. 196b), Kifra, or Kufra (Yer. Ta'an. 68b; Meg. 70a), Lydda (Yer. Sheḳ. v., end), Maon (Shab. 139a; Zab. 118b), Sepphoris (Pesiḳ. 136b [the great synagogue]; Yer. Ber. 9a; Yer. Shab. 8a [the Synagogue of the Babylonians]; Yer. Ber. 6a [the Synagogue of the Vine]), Tiberias (Ber. 8a, 30b [thirteen synagogues]; Yer. Ta'an. 64a [the Synagogue of the βουλή]; 'Er. x. 10), and Ṭibe'in (Tosef., Meg. ii.).
===========
The earliest document relating to the settlement of the Jews in Egypt and their adoption of Ḥellenic customs was discovered in 1902. This is a marble slab with the following inscription in Greek: "In honor of King Ptolemy

I find it very difficult to reconcile the Jewish Law as given in Numbers and Deuteronomy with the dedication of Houses of Worship to not just human beings but to non-Jews. That does not jive with the history of the Hebrews as a People.

and Queen Berenice, his sister and wife, and their children, the Jews [dedicate] this synagogue" (προσενχ&#942. The stone was found in the ancient Schedia, 20 kilometers from Alexandria; the king mentioned on it is Ptolemy, according to Th. Reinach (in "R. E. J." xlv. 164). Similar dedicatory inscriptions have been discovered in Lower Egypt, one of them declaring that the king had bestowed the rights of asylum (ἄσυλο&#957 on the synagogue (ib. xlv. 163). In III Macc. vii. 20 there is an account of the founding of a synagogue at Ptolemais (on the right bank of the Baḥr Yusuf) during the reign of King Ptolemy IV. Philo expressly states ("De Legatione ad Caium," § 20) that the large population of Alexandria had many synagogues in various quarters of the city, and he says also (ib.) that when the Alexandrian synagogues were destroyed the same fate was shared by the shields, golden wreaths, stelæ, and inscriptions which in honor of the emperors had been set up in the open halls (περιβολα&#953 of the courts of the synagogues (Philo, "In Flaccum," § 7).

Now they even place idolized paraphernalia within their places of worship?

The great synagogue of Alexandria, which was destroyed during the reign of Trajan, was especially famous, its size and splendor being made the subject of glowing descriptions in the schools of Palestine and Babylon (Suk. 51a; Tosef., ib. iv.; Yer. Suk. 55a).
================
Philo speaks of the synagogues of the capital of the Roman empire at the time of Augustus ("De Legatione ad Caium," § 23); and the inscriptions show that Rome contained a synagogue named in honor of the emperor Augustus, another called after Agrippa, and a third after a certain Volumnus. One synagogue received its name from the Campus Martius, and one from the Subura, a populous quarter of Rome; while another was termed "the Synagogue of the Olive-Tree." The inscriptions refer even to a synagogue of "the Hebrews," which belonged probably to a community of Jews who spoke Hebrew or Aramaic. The synagogue of Severus at Rome is mentioned in an ancient literary document dealing with the variant readings in a copy of the Pentateuch (see Schürer, "Gesch." 3d ed., iii. 44 et seq.; Berliner, "Gesch. der Juden in Rom," i. 62 et seq.).
===========================
The synagogue and the academy were the two institutions which preserved the essence of the Judaism of the Diaspora and saved it from annihilation. As the place of public worship, the synagogue became the pivot of each community, just as the Sanctuary at Jerusalem had been the center for the entire people. Ezek. xi. 16, "Yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary," was rightly interpreted, therefore, to mean that in its dispersion Israel would retain the synagogue as a sanctuary in miniature in compensation for the loss of the Temple (Targ. ad loc.), and the community crystallized around the synagogue, the only possible organization for the Jews of the Diaspora. Synagogal worship, therefore, however much it might vary in detail in different countries, was the most important visible expression of Judaism, and the chief means of uniting the Jews scattered throughout the world; while the academy, in like manner, guaranteed the unity of the religious spirit which animated the synagogue. The synagogue, consequently, is the most important feature of the Jewish community, which is inconceivable without it.

SYNAGOGUE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Basically, I do not buy what the Talmud is selling with regard to the synagogue prior to the Diaspora. There are many incentives for the writers of the Talmud to state that worship was held in synagogue, since now synagogue was all that was left for Judaism; if you can also convince Jews of the Diaspora that worshiping outside of the Temple is not only non-blasphemous/non-heretical but also a long-lived custom, then, you keep a center of Judaism alive in the communities of the Jewish Diaspora along with the rituals and festivals of the religion and the worship.

Edward Victor:

Outside of Solomon’s Temple, there is probably no more important institution in Judaism than the synagogue. The word comes from the Greek synagein, to bring together. A Greek word rather than Hebrew results from the fact that the Hebrew Bible lacks a word for it. The actual origin of the synagogue is lost in history. The consensus of opinion, however, is that the synagogue originated during the Babylonian Exile, beginning in 586 B.C., when deprived of the Temple, Jews would meet from time to time to read the scriptures. Whatever the exact origin, it is during the first century C.E., particularly after the destruction of of the Second Temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. that the synagogue emerges as a well established institution and the center of the social and religious life of the people.

Encyclopedia Judaica, Keter Publishing, Vol 15, P. 579-627

 

[theFallGuy]

I don't believe that 5,000 people were fed with two fish AT ALL.

It doesn't matter if you do or not and has no bearing on the point I was making about whether or not children were involved in the religious teachings back then.

 

[tri_vol]

1. Because it is not explicitly stated.

2. Because Joseph was over 90 years old and would not have made the journey; Mary certainly would not have made the journey without Joseph or without an old enough Jesus.



Interesting place to stop, re: Jewish Encyclopedia. I am wondering exactly why you did not choose to continue citing that Encyclopedia:



In case you are unaware, these books, which are in the Talmud, were not written until between 200 and 500 CE.



I find it very difficult to reconcile the Jewish Law as given in Numbers and Deuteronomy with the dedication of Houses of Worship to not just human beings but to non-Jews. That does not jive with the history of the Hebrews as a People.



Now they even place idolized paraphernalia within their places of worship?



Basically, I do not buy what the Talmud is selling with regard to the synagogue prior to the Diaspora. There are many incentives for the writers of the Talmud to state that worship was held in synagogue, since now synagogue was all that was left for Judaism; if you can also convince Jews of the Diaspora that worshiping outside of the Temple is not only non-blasphemous/non-heretical but also a long-lived custom, then, you keep a center of Judaism alive in the communities of the Jewish Diaspora along with the rituals and festivals of the religion and the worship.

1. If you only want to believe only whats explicitly stated then thats your right. I disagree. The Jews were under the command of law to attend 3 festivals. Why would Joseph & Mary go to 1 but not the other 2? I don't buy what your selling. There are other accounts of Joseph & Mary going to the temple other than the Passover. Either way, it goes against your original point, Jesus did have religious guidance and influence as a child.

2. As for the Jewish Encyclopdia you continued to quote, I read it. I didn't quote it because it wasnt relevant and does nothing to prove your point. The closest it comes is quoting a strict interpretation of a word. That doesn't mean it can't be applied more broadly based on context. Translators do that all the time in every language. By Jesus day, the synagogue had become a community center where leaders met but it still retained its standing as the religious center of worship.

There are numerous accounts of Jesus & his 1st century followers teaching at synagogues. Why would they show up at government building and have a Bible class? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Lexvol]

When will people learn that banning books is Nazi behavior? There are plenty of other books to read that will give an opposite opinion. Scholars make a living and earn grants to do it.

 

[therealUT]

1. If you only want to believe only whats explicitly stated then thats your right. I disagree. The Jews were under the command of law to attend 3 festivals. Why would Joseph & Mary go to 1 but not the other 2? I don't buy what your selling. There are other accounts of Joseph & Mary going to the temple other than the Passover. Either way, it goes against your original point, Jesus did have religious guidance and influence as a child.

Since I do not view the Gospels as a history but as a fictional allegory, I will take the word of the writer when the writer states that they went to Jerusalem once a year for Passover. I understand the other 'pilgrimage festivals'; however, I also understand that in ancient Judaism much like other religions that have pilgrimages, individuals can be excused for certain circumstances. I would say that being over 90 years old would excuse the head of the family and, therefore, the family from making a long walking excursion three times a year to the tune of around 36 days.

It does not go against my point that Jesus was not indoctrinated; particularly, not indoctrinated to the excessive point in which Christian children are indoctrinated today (many churches have Sunday morning and evening services as well as Wednesday night services). There is nothing in the Gospels nor the history of Judaism that is going to serve to convince me that Jesus was having the scripture read to him and interpreted by any sense of a centralized authority to him as a child; therefore, he would not have been 'indoctrinated'.

2. As for the Jewish Encyclopdia you continued to quote, I read it. I didn't quote it because it wasnt relevant and does nothing to prove your point. The closest it comes is quoting a strict interpretation of a word. That doesn't mean it can't be applied more broadly based on context. Translators do that all the time in every language. By Jesus day, the synagogue had become a community center where leaders met but it still retained its standing as the religious center of worship.

There are numerous accounts of Jesus & his 1st century followers teaching at synagogues. Why would they show up at government building and have a Bible class? That doesn't make sense.

Synagogues were community assembly buildings; they were not houses of worship. No Jew prior to 100 CE would have worshiped in a building that was dedicated to any man, especially a non-Jew. It is nothing but nonsense.

Does the Talmud try to sell this lie? Of course; much like Christianity tries to sell the lie that a man lived, was born of a Virgin, walked on water, turned water into wine, was crucified, rose from the dead, rose others from the dead, etc., etc. with no primary documentation from the time, no external sources, that corroborate such a fantastic story.

Synagogues are referred to as nothing more than assemblies in the Old Testament and, yes, religious discussions and instruction took place for the Mitzvah and among the adult men; all worship is conducted in the Temple. These are what is corroborated by external sources, external histories, etc. Nothing about worshiping in synagogues appears until the Talmud.

Jesus might have taught at a synagogue; he certainly does not go through any ritual worship there. If he did, why is this left out of the Bible? Why if worship was taking place in synagogue since the Babylonian exile is this not mentioned in the Old Testament?

Because it did not f***ing happen. That is why.

 

[Septic]

It doesn't matter if you do or not and has no bearing on the point I was making about whether or not children were involved in the religious teachings back then.

Hey, you brought it up, not me.

 

[RespectTradition]

Different type of 'synagogue' and different Hebrew word. Prior to the final destruction, 'synogogue' was simply assembly. These were used for local, communal governance more than anything and they were not used for worship. Instruction and discussion occurred at synogogue only for those about to have their Mitzvah and the adults.

It clearly states in the Gospel that Jesus's family only went to Jerusalem once a year (60 miles was a journey of three to six days depending on the health of those journeying...Joseph was in his nineties) for Passover.

Just curious... where do you get your information that Joseph was in his 90s?

 

[vols_fan_68]

Freedom of....

 

[therealUT]

Just curious... where do you get your information that Joseph was in his 90s?

It is mentioned in a few of the gnostic gospels. His fist wife died when they were in their 70s. He married Mary when he was 94 (IIRC).