Pastner vs. Cuonzo? Fight to the Death!

#1
TennaciousD957

TennaciousD957

I'm Kind of a Big Deal
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#1
After last nights game I started thinking about Cuonzo and his uncanny ability to play down to his competition and lose to non-NCAA tourney teams. These types of losses kill momentum, morale (players and fans), and NCAA tourney resumes. Here is a breakdown of the non-NCAA tourney teams Cuonzo has lost to since being a head coach (except for his first season at MSU b/c that was a complete mess).

2009-10 - Missouri State (24-12 & 8-10) - CIT
Arkansas (12-18)
Wichita State (25-10) 2nd in the MVC
Drake (15-19)
Bradley (21-16)
Creighton (20-16)
Southern Ill (17-15)
Ill State (23-11)
Indiana St. (18-15)

2010-11 - Missouri State (26-9 & 15-3) - NIT
Tulsa (20-16) 2nd in CUSA
Northern Iowa (20-14) 4th MVC
Evansville (16-16) 6th MVC
Valpo (23-12) 4th Horizon

2011-12 - UT (19-16 & 10-6) - NIT
Oakland (20-16) 3rd Summitt
Austin Peay (14-20) couldn't find conf finish
Col. Of Charleston (19-12) 4th in South Div of Southern
UGA (15-17) 11th SEC
BAMA (20-12) 6th SEC
Ole Miss (20-14) 8th SEC

2012-13 - UT (20-13 & 11-7) - NIT
BAMA x2 (23-13) 3rd SEC
UK (21-12) 4th SEC
Ark (19-13) 7th SEC
UGA x2 (15-17) 9th SEC
Mercer (24-12) 1st Atlantic Sun (lost conf tourny - NIT)

2013-14 - UT (14-8 & 5-4)
UTEP (16-6) currently 2nd in CUSA (1 bid league?)
NC State (14-7) 8th ACC
Tx A&M (12-9) 9th SEC
Vandy (13-8) 6th SEC

Cuonzo takes 4-8 losses a year against teams that will not make the NCAAs. Now compare this trend versus Josh Pastner. Pastner is widely criticized on this board and across the country and being a mediocre game coach at best with due. Since being a head coach here are his losses against non-NCAA teams.

09-10 - Memphis (24-10 & 15-3) - NIT
UMASS
SMU
Ole Miss

10-11 - Memphis (25-10 & 10-6) - NCAA
SMU
Marshall
Rice
Tulsa
UTEP

11-12 - Memphis (26-9 & 13-3) - NCAA
UTEP

12-13 - Memphis (31-5 & 16-0) - NCAA
None

13-14 - Memphis (17-5 & 7-3)
None

Notice any differences. I am not lobbying to hire Pastner, but I can see at least 2 things from his record. #1 he does not lose to teams he should be very often and only 1 time in the last 3 seasons. He also appears to improving dramatically as a coach. Because of this he and Memphis are making NCAAs

For Cuonzo, he has not improved at all in 6 years as a head coach in this manner. These games are EXACTLY why we are NOT making NCAAs.You can make excuses for a game here and there as all teams lose games they are not supposed to, but all teams don't lose 5-8 games they are not supposed to every year. Those teams are irrelevant in the basketball world.
 
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#9
#9
I would take Scott Drew or Pastner over Cuonzo. Hands down. Thanks for bringing that up. It actually goes along perfectly with my thoughts on Cuonzo.

Are Drew and Pastner elite coaches? Not even close.

Are both having more successful careers than Cuonzo? The answer should tell you all you need to know about where Cuonzo has placed himself in the coaching lineup.

Any thoughts on Cuonzo's record against non-NCAA teams?
 
#10
#10
It's going to be interesting to see how the UT administration reacts to CCM if UT doesn't reach the NCAA tournament this year though i believe he will not be fired. He's not the greatest coach but he manages to win 20 games (+/- 1) yearly. I wonder how often a coach with 20 wins in aw season is fired without any violations or off the court issues, not to mention how has it affects potential replacements.
 
#11
#11
kiddiedoc said:
Have you been to a game lately?
Click to expand...

My thoughts also. Don't live in the state anymore, but the games of late that I catch on TV it seems like a museum. CCM just can't get this team to get on a roll of wins.

Nov- we went 5-2
Dec - 3-2
Jan - 5-3
Feb - 1-1 so far

Wins in each month, but some losses that should never have happened.
 
#14
#14
Kusotate said:
It's going to be interesting to see how the UT administration reacts to CCM if UT doesn't reach the NCAA tournament this year though i believe he will not be fired. He's not the greatest coach but he manages to win 20 games (+/- 1) yearly. I wonder how often a coach with 20 wins in aw season is fired without any violations or off the court issues, not to mention how has it affects potential replacements.
Click to expand...

Lets hope they dont have this mindset. Who cares if we win 20 games if we aren't in the tournament?
 
#16
#16
Exactly. 20 wins means nothing in today's NCAA. In fact look at the records of the teams that Cuonzo has lost to over the years. Most of them had 20 wins and none of them made the NCAAs. If Cuonzo can't figure how to beat mediocre teams consistently he will never make the NCAAs on a regular basis.

Imagine our RPI if we had won last night against Vandy, beat A&M, and beat NC State at home (i'll give them the UTEP game as they have turned out to be a better team than thought and a lot of teams lose games like this early in the season). 17-4, 7-2 (second place in the SEC) and RPI in what the low 30s high 20s, ranked in the top 25?

Even if you give the Vandy game b/c it was on the road. A&M and NC State were unacceptable and have killed our season. 16-5, 6-3 (3rd place in the SEC) and an RPI in the mid to high 30s.
 
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#17
#17
TennaciousD957 said:
After last nights game I started thinking about Cuonzo and his uncanny ability to play down to his competition and lose to non-NCAA tourney teams. These types of losses kill momentum, morale (players and fans), and NCAA tourney resumes. Here is a breakdown of the non-NCAA tourney teams Cuonzo has lost to since being a head coach (except for his first season at MSU b/c that was a complete mess).

2009-10 - Missouri State (24-12 & 8-10) - CIT
Arkansas (12-18)
Wichita State (25-10) 2nd in the MVC
Drake (15-19)
Bradley (21-16)
Creighton (20-16)
Southern Ill (17-15)
Ill State (23-11)
Indiana St. (18-15)

2010-11 - Missouri State (26-9 & 15-3) - NIT
Tulsa (20-16) 2nd in CUSA
Northern Iowa (20-14) 4th MVC
Evansville (16-16) 6th MVC
Valpo (23-12) 4th Horizon

2011-12 - UT (19-16 & 10-6) - NIT
Oakland (20-16) 3rd Summitt
Austin Peay (14-20) couldn't find conf finish
Col. Of Charleston (19-12) 4th in South Div of Southern
UGA (15-17) 11th SEC
BAMA (20-12) 6th SEC
Ole Miss (20-14) 8th SEC

2012-13 - UT (20-13 & 11-7) - NIT
BAMA x2 (23-13) 3rd SEC
UK (21-12) 4th SEC
Ark (19-13) 7th SEC
UGA x2 (15-17) 9th SEC
Mercer (24-12) 1st Atlantic Sun (lost conf tourny - NIT)

2013-14 - UT (14-8 & 5-4)
UTEP (16-6) currently 2nd in CUSA (1 bid league?)
NC State (14-7) 8th ACC
Tx A&M (12-9) 9th SEC
Vandy (13-8) 6th SEC

Cuonzo takes 4-8 losses a year against teams that will not make the NCAAs. Now compare this trend versus Josh Pastner. Pastner is widely criticized on this board and across the country and being a mediocre game coach at best with due. Since being a head coach here are his losses against non-NCAA teams.

09-10 - Memphis (24-10 & 15-3) - NIT
UMASS
SMU
Ole Miss

10-11 - Memphis (25-10 & 10-6) - NCAA
SMU
Marshall
Rice
Tulsa
UTEP

11-12 - Memphis (26-9 & 13-3) - NCAA
UTEP

12-13 - Memphis (31-5 & 16-0) - NCAA
None

13-14 - Memphis (17-5 & 7-3)
None

Notice any differences. I am not lobbying to hire Pastner, but I can see at least 2 things from his record. #1 he does not lose to teams he should be very often and only 1 time in the last 3 seasons. He also appears to improving dramatically as a coach. Because of this he and Memphis are making NCAAs

For Cuonzo, he has not improved at all in 6 years as a head coach in this manner. These games are EXACTLY why we are NOT making NCAAs.You can make excuses for a game here and there as all teams lose games they are not supposed to, but all teams don't lose 5-8 games they are not supposed to every year. Those teams are irrelevant in the basketball world.
Click to expand...

I don't think Pastner would be an upgrade from Martin, and I don't hold too high opinion of Martin...
 
#18
#18
I hear he will be fired at the end of the season and move into Dooleys former house and live off of his free money UT gave him. Its the UT welfare plan.
 
#20
#20
Honestly did not look. However, at no point did I suggest differently. In fact I have no argument against Cuonzo and his ability to coach as the underdog. Its the games he is supposed to win that are the problem. Cuonzo is not terrible at everything. If he was we would be 10-20 every year.

He just happens to lose 4-8 games against non-NCAA opponents every year as a head coach, which in turn makes his teams non-NCAA teams. Last year we missed the NCAAs essentially because of 2 losses to UGA. My hope was that he would correct that problem this year. Alas he has not. He is continuing the same trend. :hi:
 
#21
#21
They are both in over their head. However, Pastner's warts can be hidden by superior talent at times. Martin will never have that kind of talent to bail him out.
 
#22
#22
Agreed. Doesn't that make Pastner a better overall coach? Recruiting is a integral piece of the puzzle. And trust me, I am NOT advocating for Pastner at UT. I am simply trying to make a valid comparison of Cuonzo to one of his peers with similar head coaching experience.
 
#24
#24
bleedingTNorange said:
Guessing his record verse ranked opponents is better than Pastner's :hi:
Click to expand...

I think Pastner has more wins against ranked teams away from his home court.

Cuonzo can get lucky every once in a while in front of the TBA crowd, but when he goes on the road he loses stinkers to UTEP and Vandy.
 
#25
#25
Does all this fall on deaf ears? Does Dave Hart hear this and push it aside? Dooley wasted alot of talent his last year, and it looks as if Cuonzo is doing the same thing.
 
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