Pay czar going after CEO pay

#51
#51
you need some base salary though. citibank for instance for years had most of it's salary paid in deferred stock, but obama is talking about cutting the salaries by 90%. i agree it should be tied to companies performance, but if the company suffers that doesn't meant he person shouldn't make a dime for his effort.

as for lewis he's milked boa for tens of millions before turning down a salary in 09.
 
#52
#52
i doubt that you or many other people would take a job where the majority of your salary is based on company stock if you have the option of getting that money upfront. particurally since many of these guys already have thousands or millions of stock options in boa or citi that are now worthless.
 
#54
#54
droski, the arguments you are making are for why you personally, if a shareholder, would vote against a move by others to oust the leadership of an institution in these circumstances. But that begs the question, in my mind, which is that certainly shareholders in the typical sense of the word -- if that even exists today -- would be pissed off purely by the fact that money being paid out in big bonuses could, in their view, be better spent shoring up the books so as to improve the price of stock and/or dividends.

I understand you believe that the people getting the bonuses are the "good guys," the ones producing revenue. Frankly, I'm not sure I believe that always to be the case. But even if it were, my question is realy as to whether it is realistic to expect the shareholders to ever really do anything about this. I mean, if they could do it in any practical sense, I would have expected it by now.
 
#56
#56
droski said:
you need some base salary though. citibank for instance for years had most of it's salary paid in deferred stock, but obama is talking about cutting the salaries by 90%. i agree it should be tied to companies performance, but if the company suffers that doesn't meant he person shouldn't make a dime for his effort.

as for lewis he's milked boa for tens of millions before turning down a salary in 09.
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But that is the real world that most employees and business owners live in. It's every day that people work hard, fail, and not only lose compensation, but dive into deep debt.
 
#57
#57
Do you not understand the frustration though? Unemployment is up and pay is down for most of the country, caused (at least in part, not all of it though) by the risk taking and near collapse of the financial industry. Now people in that industry are still getting fat paydays while others who had nothing directly to do with it, and don't even understand it, suffer disproportionately more.

Personally, I don't care. It is what it is....but I do have empathy for the responsible ones of us who have seen our house prices drop and 401K's tank.
 
#58
#58
lawgator1 said:
But that begs the question, in my mind, which is that certainly shareholders in the typical sense of the word -- if that even exists today -- would be pissed off purely by the fact that money being paid out in big bonuses could, in their view, be better spent shoring up the books so as to improve the price of stock and/or dividends.
.
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by that theory why invest in technology since that money could be used to buy back shares or increase the dividend? bonuses are investments in the future of the company.
 
#59
#59
UT IE 95 said:
But that is the real world that most employees and business owners live in. It's every day that people work hard, fail, and not only lose compensation, but dive into deep debt.
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Executives don't live in the real world. When a CEO is getting paid 500 times what another worker is, the rules change. I understand it's the all-knowing market at work with executive pay, that's fine, but it should at least be reasonable to ask that actual performance and results mean something.
 
#60
#60
UT IE 95 said:
But that is the real world that most employees and business owners live in. It's every day that people work hard, fail, and not only lose compensation, but dive into deep debt.
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the overwelming majority of people in this country get paid a salary and that get that salary even if they suck at their job. they could get fired certainly, but the get paid as long as they are employed.

rjd970 said:
Do you not understand the frustration though? Unemployment is up and pay is down for most of the country, caused (at least in part, not all of it though) by the risk taking and near collapse of the financial industry. Now people in that industry are still getting fat paydays while others who had nothing directly to do with it, and don't even understand it, suffer disproportionately more.

Personally, I don't care. It is what it is....but I do have empathy for the responsible ones of us who have seen our house prices drop and 401K's tank.
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it's not a frustration based out of reality. it's a frustration based out of envy and a lack of knowledge of the way financial companies work. and the average american is the one who bought houses they can't afford and caused these banks to go under.
 
#61
#61
rjd970 said:
Executives don't live in the real world. When a CEO is getting paid 500 times what another worker is, the rules change. I understand it's the all-knowing market at work with executive pay, that's fine, but it should at least be reasonable to ask that actual performance and results mean something.
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you don't see that there is a huge difference between saying that they shouldn't have huge guarenteed contracts to saying their salary should get cut 90%.
 
#62
#62
droski said:
what organization have you worked for that hands out money for no reason?
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Is it not the case that these boards of directors in some of these organizations migth number 30 people? All of whom decide how much to bonus each other and the management that works for them? On paper, they have certain obligations and fiduciary duties. On paper.

Do you really believe that all of the bonus money is going only to people that can show a book of profitable business?
 
#63
#63
droski said:
it's not a frustration based out of reality. it's a frustration based out of envy and a lack of knowledge of the way financial companies work. and the average american is the one who bought houses they can't afford and caused these banks to go under.
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This is a crap generalization. I'm talking about those of us who could give a rats arse what elite d'bags working on wall street get paid...you know, the responsible ones of us who didn't buy beyond our means, were responsible, and still got hit financially by no fault of our own. Would it be nice to get paid what some of these guys are getting paid? Sure. But that doesn't mean I need it. I have a good job, I am comfortably middle class, and my family and I enjoy what we have. But when we work hard to buy a house, and I pump money into my 401K...only to see both lose money while those same d'bags on wall street are still getting fat bonuses in part from my tax dollars, of course it is going to be bothersome.

Only someone who is self-absorbed with themselves would say this is about envy.
 
#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
Is it not the case that these boards of directors in some of these organizations migth number 30 people? All of whom decide how much to bonus each other and the management that works for them? On paper, they have certain obligations and fiduciary duties. On paper.

Do you really believe that all of the bonus money is going only to people that can show a book of profitable business?
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are you really trying to argue that the board of directors give themselves millions in bonuses? how in the world do you think that is legal? do you even understand how board of directors work?

and yes i really believe that all the bonus money is going to people who book profitable business or at least management thinks is likely to book profitable busines or help other book profitable business. are there guys getting bonuses they didn't derserve? probably. just as there are plenty of high paid people in any organization that management doesn't realize they are overpaying. frankly the investment banking business is more revenue driven when it comes to salary than any other business in the world.
 
#65
#65
rjd970 said:
But when we work hard to buy a house, and I pump money into my 401K...only to see both lose money while those same d'bags on wall street are still getting fat bonuses in part from my tax dollars, of course it is going to be bothersome.
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this doesn't sound like envy to you?

why are they dirtbags rather than people just like you trying to make a living? what's the difference between you and them besides them making a hell of a lot more money than you? why aren't you up in arms over the bank teller or receptionist that got to keep their job and is using taxpayers money?
 
#66
#66
droski said:
this doesn't sound like envy to you?

why are they dirtbags rather than people just like you trying to make a living? what's the difference between you and them besides them making a hell of a lot more money than you?
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No, frankly, it doesn't sound like envy. I'm not out there taking risks, or working in an industry where my income is directly affected by how the market performs. I am quite content with my lifestyle.

It's the sense of entitlement with these bonuses, bloated salaries, and expectations of privatized wins and socialized losses that irks me.
 
#67
#67
rjd970 said:
It's the sense of entitlement with these bonuses, bloated salaries, and expectations of privatized wins and socialized losses that irks me.
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the overwelming majority of people getting bonuses had zero to do with mortgage back securities. so I ask again why are they different from the secretaries or bank tellers who feel entitled to get a salary? everyone else expects to be paid for their work. why are these people different? besides making a lot more money that is.
 
#68
#68
droski said:
the overwelming majority of people getting bonuses had zero to do with mortgage back securities. so I ask again why are they different from the secretaries or bank tellers who feel entitled to get a salary?
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Because they had zero to do with any of that as well, and in fact, are even further removed from it. Yet they are proportionately suffering more. By your own account, its a small group of departments that caused the mess and got fired. It's more secretaries, bank tellers, and main street workers that are seeing their salaries and wealth decrease.

And your canard of its the average american who bought beyond their means that caused all this isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the responsible ones of us that don't need more than what we have actually worked and saved for.
 
#69
#69
lawgator1 said:
Is it not the case that these boards of directors in some of these organizations migth number 30 people? All of whom decide how much to bonus each other and the management that works for them? On paper, they have certain obligations and fiduciary duties. On paper.

Do you really believe that all of the bonus money is going only to people that can show a book of profitable business?
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do you really think that in this environement if someone on the board of directors told the CEO of say citibank to give their cousin a million $$$ bonus and the CEO did it that this wouldn't have come out by now? that is what you are arguing is going on right? if all these back dealings and unfair bonuses are happening where are the whistleblowers? we already saw the uproar over the aig special products division.
 
#70
#70
rjd970 said:
Because they had zero to do with any of that as well, and in fact, are even further removed from it. Yet they are proportionately suffering more. By your own account, its a small group of departments that caused the mess and got fired. It's more secretaries, bank tellers, and main street workers that are seeing their salaries and wealth decrease.

And your canard of its the average american who bought beyond their means that caused all this isn't what I am talking about. I am talking about the responsible ones of us that don't need more than what we have actually worked and saved for.
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they are suffering more because why? because they make less money? i thought the money didn't matter? i'd be willing to bet that the average income for a financial professional is down by a much larger % tha the average income of an employed bank teller.

and what about the responsible investment banker who had nothing to do with it who is acting responsible and worked and has saved and who is makign lots of money for his company. why should he be given the middle finger? because he makes more?
 
#71
#71
droski said:
they are suffering more because why? because they make less money? i thought the money didn't matter? i'd be willing to bet that the average income for a financial professional is down by a much larger % tha the average income of an employed bank teller.

and what about the responsible investment banker who had nothing to do with it who is acting responsible and worked and has saved and who is makign lots of money for his company. why should he be given the middle finger? because he makes more?
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You can keep trying to make this about the amount of money one makes all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that everybody is suffering while those all wall street think they are entitled to carry on business as usual.

And if you count those that lost jobs and factor it into the % income drop as a weighted average whole, I would take that bet that financial planners are suffering more.
 
#72
#72
I don't care what anyone calls it or what the perception is, it is stupid for outsiders to a company to have any say whatsoever over bonuses that are being paid out for performance. Even worse, this arbitrary stupidity has nothing to do with profitablity or income generation. If it's because some stock investor lost money sue to a broad market real estate valuation, this czar should be hanged. He's dooming outfits like AIG to never make a creative cent again. Nevermind that those companies intellectual property and financial ingenuity created an enormous portion of the wealth in America by providing liquidity to markets that hadn't seen it before and didn't deserve it.

Those botching about their 401k taking the hammer need to reevaluate their investment philosophy. The returns in the broader market exist because the element of risk is higher. You want less risk, do bank style, securitized investing and CD returns. Equities always have a risk of going to 0, based on simple crap like idiotic philosophy.
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#73
#73
BigPapaVol said:
I don't care what anyone calls it or what the perception is, it is stupid for outsiders to a company to have any say whatsoever over bonuses that are being paid out for performance. Even worse, this arbitrary stupidity has nothing to do with profitablity or income generation. If it's because some stock investor lost money sue to a broad market real estate valuation, this czar should be hanged. He's dooming outfits like AIG to never make a creative cent again. Nevermind that those companies intellectual property and financial ingenuity created an enormous portion of the wealth in America by providing liquidity to markets that hadn't seen it before and didn't deserve it.

Those botching about their 401k taking the hammer need to reevaluate their investment philosophy. The returns in the broader market exist because the element of risk is higher. You want less risk, do bank style, securitized investing and CD returns. Equities always have a risk of going to 0, based on simple crap like idiotic philosophy.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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+1

:hi:
 
#74
#74
lawgator1 said:
Is it not the case that these boards of directors in some of these organizations migth number 30 people? All of whom decide how much to bonus each other and the management that works for them? On paper, they have certain obligations and fiduciary duties. On paper.

Do you really believe that all of the bonus money is going only to people that can show a book of profitable business?
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I know men that sit on the boards of several different fortune 500 companies. I can assure you, no one is getting paid anything that they are not earning in this economy. The "they deserve this" logic is total bull.

BHO is just playing to the minions that got him elected.
 
#75
#75
droski said:
guys who can generate consistant returns and/or have large books of business are never not able to find other positions. goldman, morgan staney, jp morgan, private equity, hedge funds, ubs, usb, etc etc etc. christ they are still paying stock brokers millions upfront to change firms in this environment. obama is ensuring that those players i listed will dominate the next 20 years of wall street.
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So none of these financial employers have a non-compete clause in their "rainmakers" employment contract? They can just say, "I'm outta here and taking my book of sales to your competitor"?
 
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