Pictures of Iraq Success

#26
#26
We also received intel from inside the Iraq. The Kurds to the north who were treated the worst by Sadam provide by intel and on the ground support. Vital part in coming in from the north that played a major role in how fast we received Baghdad and they could provide support and block retreats.

Point taken on the resistance. Iraqi's network was not even close the French's but fact is the French were not able do it on their own. The French live for resistance and not victory anyhow. Just like the French WWII rifle for sale on EBAY. Reads, "WWII French rifle for sale: Never been fired. Dropped once." :)
 
#27
#27
And the Iraqi one on eBay says something to the effect of killing at least 30 American infidels....

Point is the French actively fought back and retook control of their nation. You cannot compare Iraq to France since Iraq is still considered Third World, it has at least three large ethnic/cultural groups who hate each other, and most people care less about who is doing what as long as they have their simple status quo life maintained.
 
#28
#28
I think you underestimate the Iraqi people. Could they do more, sure. Are they just sitting back, no.

The numbers of Iraqi's that continue to come forward to serve as police and military suggests that many do give a crap. When standing in line to serve can get you blown up - well, I'd say that's giving a crap.
 
#29
#29
CSpindizzy said:
And the Iraqi one on eBay says something to the effect of killing at least 30 American infidels....

Point is the French actively fought back and retook control of their nation. You cannot compare Iraq to France since Iraq is still considered Third World, it has at least three large ethnic/cultural groups who hate each other, and most people care less about who is doing what as long as they have their simple status quo life maintained.
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You do live up to your name Spindizzy. I was not comparing the two at all in the type of war or its people at all. The original post was just referring to the fact that neither could win the war they were in on their own. They needed outside help to achieve a dictator free country. That's it. You are the one that broadened the dialogue to culture, ethic groups, etc.

Back on Iraq only... I believe Iraq and the world is a better place without Saddam. Iraq was ruled with a tighter hand with Saddam and different ethic groups were kept in check but he also killed his own at will and in great numbers. There are many families in Iraq that also would disagree with you that Saddam should have been left in power. The families have no idea where their fathers or brothers are at because they just disappeared under Saddam's rule. Things in Iraq are getting better and they will continue.
 
#30
#30
good to hear some recognition in the pros category over in iraq rather than the cons. for some reason, people always like to talk about the negative side of the war rather than progress being made.
 
#31
#31
volinbham said:
I think you underestimate the Iraqi people. Could they do more, sure. Are they just sitting back, no.

The numbers of Iraqi's that continue to come forward to serve as police and military suggests that many do give a crap. When standing in line to serve can get you blown up - well, I'd say that's giving a crap.
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When you've seen it firsthand, you have a different perspective. How many are coming forward? How many are remaining? You are overestimating the 'good news' coming out. Many of those fluffed numbers do not reflect desertions. They do not reflect how many are actually militia members and terrorists infiltrating the law enforcement groups.

Since you are a numbers guy tell me how many are coming forth and compare that to the overall population. Then tell me I underestimate them.
 
#32
#32
No one has fully explained how spending our children and our grandchildren's future and saddling them with this huge debt from the war is in the best interest of them and this country. Spending the money to create a country that will be the greatest ally the country of Iran will ever have.
 
#33
#33
hohenfelsvol said:
You do live up to your name Spindizzy.

Back on Iraq only... I believe Iraq and the world is a better place without Saddam. Iraq was ruled with a tighter hand with Saddam and different ethic groups were kept in check but he also killed his own at will and in great numbers. Things in Iraq are getting better and they will continue.
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You misunderstand the meaning of my name but that is for another time and place.

How is Iraq and the world a better place? Considering how many people are constantly killed on a daily basis, how much infrastructure issues still are going on, how much oil continues to be bottle up from attacks, etc. and considering people have no clue who to trust and a government with no power, how do you figure things are better? Considering thousands of people who otherwise would just solely have a hatred of the US now have the weapons and training to match that hate but to actually kill Americans, I'd say we regressed.

I'd like to know what measure you use in saying things are better. Because just about every issue across the board, we've taken steps backwards.
 
#34
#34
CSpindizzy said:
Since you are a numbers guy tell me how many are coming forth and compare that to the overall population. Then tell me I underestimate them.
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Impossible to know - just as a blanket statement that most simply want a status quo no matter who is doing what is impossible to know.
 
#36
#36
CSpindizzy said:
Impossible? Actions or lack of give a pretty defining view.
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How many actions have been taken? How many should be?

Your statement is pure speculation - an assumption that most in Iraq don't care who is in charge or who does what.

You have no way of setting realistic parameters of how many people should take what actions. This situation is unique. Even if those estimates could be developed, there is then the problem of making an accurate count of which people have taken what actions.

In short, we'd all like to see more progress. That doesn't mean though that most people over there don't care.
 
#37
#37
Again, when you've been there and seen firsthand perhaps you can speculate yourself. The fact is that most people have not acted, most people do not stand up, most people are not marching in the streets, lining up to join the army or police, or speaking out against what is going on there.

You can say my statement is pure speculation but it is fact. How is this situation unique? Unique from what?

Show me something substantive that proves your point and I can believe you. But hearing firsthand, seeing firsthand, and facts coming out left and right disprove your own assertions.
 
#38
#38
You are saying the people are not sitting back. I ask what numbers or percentage are you applying to this. I see a LARGE percentage of the people just staying home, laying low, and/or keeping their mouths shut in this. If I see some mass movement or 100K demonstrations like Hizbollah in Lebanon, I'd be more inclined to following your view.
 
#39
#39
CSpindizzy said:
You can say my statement is pure speculation but it is fact. How is this situation unique? Unique from what?

Show me something substantive that proves your point and I can believe you. But hearing firsthand, seeing firsthand, and facts coming out left and right disprove your own assertions.
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It is unique in the sense that the country is a collection of three distinct types of people (Sunnis, Shia, Kurds) that were under the brutal rule of a dictator for 30plus years. The regime was removed. The analogy to the French is weak. They were independent then conquered for a short time.

An alternative analogy would be a crime ridden neighborhood, dominated by a minority of gang members. The laws say what they are doing is wrong. There is some police action but not enough. The majority of residents want something different but are limited in their ability to make any real change. It's not that they don't care; just want a status quo; would gladly cede leadership to criminal elements. They take action but it is not enough - very different than being indifferent.

You've shown nothing substantive to prove your point. The facts you speak of demand context. There are facts of thousands signing up when they could be killed. There are facts of hundreds of thousands risking their lives to vote - the very essence of democracy. These too are facts. Is it enough? Who knows. We don't have a very good gauge to assess it.

Without an accurate gauge of what type of response is reasonable in this situation, facts are incomplete and point in different direction depending on expectations only mildly rooted in reality. The Iraqi response clearly fails to meet your expectations. I'm questioning whether or not your expectations are realistic.
 
#40
#40
CSpindizzy said:
You are saying the people are not sitting back. I ask what numbers or percentage are you applying to this. I see a LARGE percentage of the people just staying home, laying low, and/or keeping their mouths shut in this. If I see some mass movement or 100K demonstrations like Hizbollah in Lebanon, I'd be more inclined to following your view.
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What exactly is this 100K movement supposed to protest?
 
#41
#41
Umm...well let's see...stand up against the corruption, the violence, the terrorism, and the defilement of this wonderful new toy called democracy that was handed to them. Standing up against the foreigners coming in to wage war and incite even more death than under Saddam....
 
#44
#44
CSpindizzy said:
They were allowed to before in Iraq....strange how the consequences seem to be the same whether Saddam is there or if it is al Maliki.
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Yea right. They could hold demonstrations? They could vote? They could voice their displeasure with the administration?
 
#45
#45
They demonstrated all the time. They voted on a regular basis. They voiced their displeasure. Of course consequences then and now typically result in death although the methods are a little different. Then was hanging and firing squad. Now it's beheading and bombing.
 
#46
#46
CSpindizzy said:
They demonstrated all the time. They voted on a regular basis. They voiced their displeasure. Of course consequences then and now typically result in death although the methods are a little different. Then was hanging and firing squad. Now it's beheading and bombing.
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Ok. The demonstrations you write about were against the west and not vs the internal government or Saddam. Not the same thing. The voting they had for the leader of Iraq had one name on it. Not the same thing.
 
#48
#48
How do you know what demonstrations I write about? How do you know who was on the ballot? There were demonstrations against the Iraqi government under Saddam. Yes there were consequences but people did come out in groups and demonstrated. Elections in Iraq were not solely for President. Just like here in the US there were lower tiered elections and there were choices.

Don't buy into this watered down crap being fed about how things were under Saddam. Clearly there is an incorrect perception about what happened before we came and gave democracy to many unwilling.
 
#49
#49
volinbham said:
You can't be serious. Government organized pro-Saddam demonstrations and 99%+ winning percentages for Saddam in elections? Laughable.
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Again, laughable that you think the only thing in the elections is Saddam. Laughable you only think demonstrations were pro-Saddam. Spend some time in Iraq or talking to some people who lived in Iraq during this period. Don't believe the muddled crap you've been fed.
 
#50
#50
CSpindizzy said:
How do you know what demonstrations I write about? How do you know who was on the ballot? There were demonstrations against the Iraqi government under Saddam. Yes there were consequences but people did come out in groups and demonstrated. Elections in Iraq were not solely for President. Just like here in the US there were lower tiered elections and there were choices.

Don't buy into this watered down crap being fed about how things were under Saddam. Clearly there is an incorrect perception about what happened before we came and gave democracy to many unwilling.
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Ditto. Don't buy the watered down crap that is being fed about how things are right now. And you obviously think the world is ending over there and its not.
 
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