Prepare for cap and trade bill Monday.

#26
#26
Sabanocchio said:
They will never survive with that philosophy. They will adapt or a competitor that is willing to abide by the rules will steal all their business. That's the way it works. That's the way it's working now in the EUETS. Why is it that Europe is always a step ahead of us on these types of things?
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Are you talking about their failed climate legislation that they are currently trying to move away from??
 
#27
#27
droski said:
how could there not be a significant rate hike?
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The whole idea is that little if any of the tax revenues raised is retained by the government. They will be distributed in the form of stimuli to the American people.

Alaska has been doing something similar for nearly 30 years.
 
#28
#28
Sabanocchio said:
The whole idea is that little if any of the tax revenues raised is retained by the government. They will be distributed in the form of stimuli to the American people.

Alaska has been doing something similar for nearly 30 years.
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What???????????????????
 
#30
#30
The sulfur dioxide cap and trade seems to have been widely successful. I don't see why they couldn't replicate that success at a higher level.
 
#31
#31
Sabanocchio said:
The whole idea is that little if any of the tax revenues raised is retained by the government. They will be distributed in the form of stimuli to the American people.

Alaska has been doing something similar for nearly 30 years.
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alaska has billions of oil reserves. not exactly comparable.
 
#32
#32
orangeblooded2 said:
TT my point has always been that the current need is to get started toward that end, before we actually have to. We will find the balance as we go. New technologies bring new jobs and new moneys. It's a win win with no down side. Innovation is the American way, it walks had in fist with Capitalism. Besides two things stick out in my mind for the need to proceed rapidly. If we are not first we will lose out on more than I like to think about. Secondly we are enslaved to big oil. Domestically and especially Foreign. I would like nothing better than to tell both we don't need it.

There is already mega bucks in investment. One could argue that the Dam has already broke. Big oil, big tech and big Government is investing Hugh amounts of money for no other reason than they can see the writing on the wall. Those that argue we don't need it or slow down are arguing amongst themselves only. The ship has sailed.
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I can agree with a lot of that, but giving alternative energy a 'big boost' research wise and deployment wise are very different things. It's like our current biofuel mandates.....they're bad, and we could do better...but we wanted the big boost so we went for it. It is a complex system though....the good aspect of the mandates is that there is much, much more biofuel research going on at the big oil companies than before. The bad aspect is that pushing for deployment too soon and before the market demands it creates a good number of inefficiencies and can leave lasting bad impressions.
 
#33
#33
Sabanocchio said:
The whole idea is that little if any of the tax revenues raised is retained by the government. They will be distributed in the form of stimuli to the American people.

Alaska has been doing something similar for nearly 30 years.
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With their track record do you honestly trust the government to distribute the money effectively? I have no faith they will produce any effective stimuli, it will be argued over and promised out to special interest and pork that garner support and votes for politicians.
 
#34
#34
Sabanocchio said:
False. The Earth receives more energy from the sun in one hour than the world uses in one year. We just have to figure out a way to efficiently harness it and we are a long way off, but that doesn't mean you don't exert the effort.

This thought that you do not research alternative energy until there is a need for it is an absolute joke. You people cannot be serious. By the time we will need something besides oil and coal 1) the cost of oil will be so high only the extremely wealthy will be able to afford it or 2) the atmosphere will be so polluted from the use, our entire ecosystem will be out of whack.
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Agree with most of this as well...
 
#35
#35
Stories and positions like these, not just one or the other is what is currently needed. It's happening all around us to deny it is happening is...."remember that ship that has sailed" well it was the Titanic and any position of the denial of this current trend, policy or energy revolution won't float a boat!


Unusual partnerships are being forged.

Tax Cuts, Renewable Energy Grants Attract Unlikely Allies - NYTimes.com



Energy and Alternative energy paying of big.

Worldwide Energy and Manufacturing USA Announces Record Revenue for Fiscal Year 2009 - MarketWatch


The T.boone Pickens plan

T. Boone Pickens' Gassy Stock at SmartMoney.com
 
#36
#36
hope they don't get cap/tax thru....

Reuters AlertNet - US unveils climate report in runup to Senate bill

WASHINGTON, April 19 (Reuters) - The United States released a new draft report on climate change on Monday, one week before the expected unveiling of a compromise U.S. Senate bill that aims to curb heat-trapping greenhouse emissions.

The report, a draft of the Fifth U.S. Climate Action Report that will be sent to the United Nations, says bluntly: "Global warming is unequivocal and primarily human-induced ... Global temperature has increased over the past 50 years. This observed increase is due primarily to human-induced emissions of heat-trapping gases."
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#37
#37
Sabanocchio said:
It's all about allocation and spending. You are mistaken if you think there is any sort of significant tax hike in our future.
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I was with you till this.............

How are we going to pay for W and Obama?

Borrow more money from the Chinese and hope they forget about it?
 
#38
#38
Sabanocchio said:
This thought that you do not research alternative energy until there is a need for it is an absolute joke. You people cannot be serious. By the time we will need something besides oil and coal 1) the cost of oil will be so high only the extremely wealthy will be able to afford it or 2) the atmosphere will be so polluted from the use, our entire ecosystem will be out of whack.
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Most people don't have a problem with the research. What people have a problem with is forcing these alternatives on us through legistation before the research has gotten it to the point where it is commercially and economically feasible. In other words, the people behind the legistation or restrictions are idealistic and impatient in many instances. They are well intentioned, but their policies are some 30-50 years ahead of the technology. That is about how long it will take for solar (or any other alternative) to be used in an efficient manner.
 
#40
#40
Sabanocchio said:
False. The Earth receives more energy from the sun in one hour than the world uses in one year. We just have to figure out a way to efficiently harness it and we are a long way off, but that doesn't mean you don't exert the effort.
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How do you figure that out without using huge amounts of landmass??

However, the c&t legislation doesn't solve that problem
and the short term solutions proposed are terminal for life in America as we know it.





Sabanocchio said:
This thought that you do not research alternative energy until there is a need for it is an absolute joke. You people cannot be serious. By the time we will need something besides oil and coal 1) the cost of oil will be so high only the extremely wealthy will be able to afford it or 2) the atmosphere will be so polluted from the use, our entire ecosystem will be out of whack.
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We have been exploring use of alternative energy for quite a while.

The thing is we should stop the ban on drilling and tapping of national oil reserves and building our own refineries, declaring coal reserves offlimits to extraction and also the inane opinion that using those assets would somehow put ecosystem out of whack is something we need to rethink.








VolInMn said:
It actually makes a lot of sense, you just have to understand the message. How clearly does he have to say it, man?
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Cap and trade makes sense for America??

If so please explain.






Sabanocchio said:
It's all about allocation and spending. You are mistaken if you think there is any sort of significant tax hike in our future.
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You have to be about the densest piece of work I've yet to come accross.

Cap and trade immediately puts a heavy indirect tax on everyone.

Just your home electric bill will jump upwards by a factor of thousands of dollars annually and everything else will likewise be affected.

The idiotic ethanol mandate has already hiked my food bill significantly










droski said:
the problem is that these technologies just aren't there and probably will NEVER get there. hate to agree with joeyvol, but he is correct. wind energy will never work. very few places in the world have continous wind. solar energy is unbelievably expensive and the sun only shines 14 hours a day. trying to get alternative energy over 10% of our energy production is just asking to double or triple our energy bills. that isn't to say we shouldn't support research, which we have, but the obama plan is just plain stupid.
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Wind and solar combined will never reach ten percent.

Obama's plan is only not stupid if his plan is to turn America a third world hell hole.
 
#41
#41
TennTradition said:
Agree with most of this as well...
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Here is something we touched on briefly earlier.

Volcano emitting 150-300,000 tonnes of CO2 daily: experts

Extrapolated over a year, the emissions would place the volcano 47th to 75th in the world table of emitters on a country-by-country basis, according to a database at the World Resources Institute (WRI), which tracks environment and sustainable development.

A 47th ranking would place it above Austria, Belarus, Portugal, Ireland, Finland, Bulgaria, Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland, according to this list, which relates to 2005.
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Current related activity;

Vanuatu prepares evacuation from rumbling volcano -  Latest news around the world and developments close to home - MSN Malaysia News

Chile volcano erupts again, evacuation ordered

Recent;

Thousands abandon homes as Philippine volcano threatens to erupt | World news | guardian.co.uk


New Island Formed in the South Pacific ~ Now That's Nifty
-----------------------------------------


I have brought up undersea volcanoes before, particularly the roll that might be played by the undersea rift under the Arctic Ocean having to do with melting the ice cap.

I lifted the following from a discussion on another board:

"There are over 3 million undersea volcanoes, 200 thousand have been documented, and 30,000 plus are very active. Very little CO2 is absorbed by the ocean from the atmosphere compared to what is produced, unmeasured, of course, by the oceans volcanoes. Fully two-thirds of the worlds’ volcanoes are underwater. The collective CO2 production of underwater volcanoes must be immense, and it not accounted for at all in climate change assumptions or data files.

The ocean indeed has temperature interchanges with the atmosphere, but, like a pot on the electric range, it receives great heat from those undersea volcanoes. How can one account for the heated waters of the specific SW Pacific area related to El Ninos if not from specific underwater heating due to volcanism? Undersea volcanoes must have a MASSIVE effect on ocean temperature, and CO2 and acid levels (SO2 release)."





Daddy Gee said:
hope they don't get cap/tax thru....

Reuters AlertNet - US unveils climate report in runup to Senate bill
Click to expand...

From a nazi propaganda handbook;

"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth."

"The bigger the lie, the more people who will be likely to believe it."
 
#42
#42
I saw the updated numbers this morning, that is, the new numbers that say 150,000-300,000 MT/day. I don't know how much sense it makes to extrapolate these numbers over a course of a year, though. If this volcano is pumping that much CO2 up, it must really be releasing loads of sulfur oxides. I wonder what the effects of that are going to be across Europe if the volcano doesn't slow down soon?
 
#43
#43
TennTradition said:
I saw the updated numbers this morning, that is, the new numbers that say 150,000-300,000 MT/day. I don't know how much sense it makes to extrapolate these numbers over a course of a year, though. If this volcano is pumping that much CO2 up, it must really be releasing loads of sulfur oxides. I wonder what the effects of that are going to be across Europe if the volcano doesn't slow down soon?
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I heard they're considering closing Europe. I'm down.
 
#45
#45
Quote:
Originally Posted by droski
the problem is that these technologies just aren't there and probably will NEVER get there. hate to agree with joeyvol, but he is correct. wind energy will never work. very few places in the world have continous wind. solar energy is unbelievably expensive and the sun only shines 14 hours a day. trying to get alternative energy over 10% of our energy production is just asking to double or triple our energy bills. that isn't to say we shouldn't support research, which we have, but the obama plan is just plain stupid.
Click to expand...


Wind and solar combined will never reach ten percent.

Obama's plan is only not stupid if his plan is to turn America a third world hell hole.
Click to expand...
does anybody know of a web resource that compares energy resources wrt cost per kwh, relative efficiency (e.g. gas v. ethanol), comparative max. output, etc.?
 
#49
#49
TennTradition said:
I saw the updated numbers this morning, that is, the new numbers that say 150,000-300,000 MT/day. I don't know how much sense it makes to extrapolate these numbers over a course of a year, though. If this volcano is pumping that much CO2 up, it must really be releasing loads of sulfur oxides. I wonder what the effects of that are going to be across Europe if the volcano doesn't slow down soon?
Click to expand...

Think this is interesting??

How an Icelandic volcano helped spark the French Revolution | World news | The Guardian

"Volcanic eruptions can have significant effects on weather patterns for from two to four years, which in turn have social and economic consequences. We shouldn't discount their possible political impacts."
Click to expand...








Rasputin_Vol said:
Most people don't have a problem with the research. What people have a problem with is forcing these alternatives on us through legistation before the research has gotten it to the point where it is commercially and economically feasible. In other words, the people behind the legistation or restrictions are idealistic and impatient in many instances. They are well intentioned, but their policies are some 30-50 years ahead of the technology. That is about how long it will take for solar (or any other alternative) to be used in an efficient manner.
Click to expand...

Very good points.

Another point not often made is what faceless bureaucrat in some office somewhere is going to decide who gets how many credits??

Well intentioned or not, they will try to be foisted on us under the stupid assumption that CO2 is a polutant which it is not, and the wild theory that somehow CO2 may push us past some tripping point into catastropic climate change, which flies in the face of all known laws of physics.

If they are successful in bulling this legislation through, a select few wil be enriched beyond measure in monetary gains, however the masses will be forced to payer higher prices for everything because companies will be required to pass on those costs or to go out of business.
 
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