Question for sjt18

#1

CSVol

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#1
Actually 2. Not necessarily picking on you, but reading your posts makes me curious of your opinion.

Have you heard of, or suscribe to, the idea that the New Testament of Christ was meant to replace the Old Testament (viewed by many as a history of the Jewish people) and that it can stand alone as a guide to eternal life?

Can it not be accepted that evolution is God's intelligent design?

This not a trap or set-up. I'm seriously interested in your (and anyone's) opinions. Hope you haven't covered this but I couldn't make it through the 23 pages of the God/no God thread.
 
#2
#2
Actually 2. Not necessarily picking on you, but reading your posts makes me curious of your opinion.

Have you heard of, or suscribe to, the idea that the New Testament of Christ was meant to replace the Old Testament (viewed by many as a history of the Jewish people) and that it can stand alone as a guide to eternal life?
Yes there are a few variations of the idea that none of the OT is valid for the church age. I believe there are some hyper-dispensationalists that do it.

I do not subscribe to the notion that the OT is meaningless to the Church age. Christ said He came to complete the Law, not destroy it.

The OT types and figures stand. The morality taught in the OT carries over but not the civil law. OT Israel was a theocracy much like modern Islam teaches.

A good example would be children. It was in the civil code that disobedient children could be killed in the OT. There seems to be little evidence that path was taken very often. Certainly, the NT teaches that children should be obedient but provides no death sentence but rather grace for those who do (prodigal son).

Christ's death IMO had two components of grace: general and personal. General grace withheld the swords of the legions of angels standing by to destroy creation had Christ chose to leave the cross. I think it also set aside or delayed many of the more extreme OT punishments.

Can it not be accepted that evolution is God's intelligent design?
I used to try to reconcile things that way. Many, many Christians did and still do.

The advantage of taking a supernatural presupposition is that you can look at the straight up claims and evidences of both spiritualism and naturalism... and accept/reject them without violating your primary premise.

Evolution could be 100% true as you offer without disproving the supernaturalist presupposition. A Gallup poll from 2004 said that about 75% of those who believe in evolution believe that God guided it. So a very clear majority of those polled believe exactly what you suggested.

For me however, I do not think it is reasonable or necessary from either a scientific angle or religion angle. I believe it to be so inconsistent with the Bible that a person must resort to bending the scriptures around a very fluid, manmade THEORY in order to hold the two views together.

It is very difficult to reconcile evolution with any sort of respect for the text of not just Genesis but the whole of the Bible. Many have tried. There are critical passages of the NT like Romans 5 that treat Adam as a very literal person... and if he wasn't then the passages are a mockery. I mention Romans 5 because Adam there is coupled with the plan of salvation itself. IOW's, if Adam was not a real person then perhaps the second Adam was not either... and there is no salvation in the Bible or Christianity.

Independent of the Bible or any other Christian presupposition... I find evolution's claims very unreasonable. They call on stronger faith than one must have to believe God simply said so. For instance, according to evolution all of life exists in all of its wonderful complexities... as a product of a process that has never been observed and cannot be simulated or reproduced in a lab. Mutations simply do not work to produce the types and amounts of genetic information needed for amoeba to man evolution.

Population geneticists do not see genomes that are adding new information and branching out into new, novel species. Speciation occurs as existing genetic information is either lost by deletion or corrupted by mutation. What they see is genomes in decline and moving toward extinction because of mutations and weakening genomes.

Behe's irreducible complexity argument gets poo-pooed by evolutionists... but not really answered. Discovery Institute and other web sites will give you the "pro". Behe so panics evolutionists that you will have no problems finding the "con". You have to consider it for yourself.

The fine tuning of the universe... especially in light of recent discoveries that universal constants aren't really constant... is a fairly strong argument against the reasonableness of Big Bang cosmology. The reliance on "dark" matter and space should also give you pause since the only real proof of them are mathematical projections.

IOW's, something was needed to balance the equations so something was dreamed up to fill in.

None of these things or many others depend on biblical creation being true. To me, they just provide significant evidence that evolution is not true.

IPO or others may or may not come by with counter arguments... I would be surprised honestly if they presented one I have not seen or heard. But I find the lack of a sufficient, demonstrable process for the ascension of species to be pretty telling all by itself.

Mendel and Darwin were contemporaries. Mendel was an Augustinian monk and the father of genetics. Darwin is credited as the father of evolution. Both were aware that some type of programming mechanism existed in living things. Darwin suggested a black box that when penetrated would be relatively easy to change. His black box could provide all the information needed for species to arise and gain complexity. Mendel suggested the gene would be very, very complex and have rigid boundaries against change.

Mendel who died about 130 years ago was correct. Darwin was very wrong.

In those 130 intervening years, genes and cells have been subjected to every imagineable type of radiation, chemical environment, and physical catalyst. The gene simply will not change as evolution requires by any naturally occurring condition.

Sorry for the long response... but you asked.:)
 
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#3
#3
CSVol, someone may come in and attempt diversion by attacking creationism... or some caricature of creationism or Christianity itself. If you are like me and most other college educated Americans, you have been taught evolution as fact with very positive assertions of "proof". My recommendation is that you look at the criticisms of evolution from as many sources as you can find before even considering whether or what type of creationism might be attractive to you.

If you can turn an honest, open minded, critical eye on evolution and still believe it then that is your prerogative. My suggestion is to first challenge what you believe... to know why you believe what you believe... and then consider other things.
 
#4
#4
I can't argue with that last post. Challenge yourself and see what shakes out.
 
#5
#5
I believe it to be so inconsistent with the Bible that a person must resort to bending the scriptures around a very fluid, manmade THEORY in order to hold the two views together.

the scriptures themselves aren't a manmade theory?
 
#6
#6
Thanks for your opinions. I was curious about your views on the OT as I disagree with the concept of God as a vengeful, spiteful Lord as He is presented by some in a fundemenatlist way. I see him as loving, compassionate, caring and forgiving.

I'm only famaliar with genetics in a very superficial way and your response has given me cause to dig deeper into this topic. While achieving my minor in Anthropolgy (emphasis on culture) at UT I was naturally exposed to other sub-disciplines like Archeology, etc. I see many holes in Darwin but tend to attribute the gaps as proof of God based on my beliefs (flowering plants is an example). At the same time, from a scientific perspective there was some value in the theory so I had to reconcile this with the idea that it is God's plan.

I ask these questions as I have been going through a sort of personal philosophical 'rennaisance'. I recently stuggled through Beyond Good and Evil and am currently reading Plato's Five Great Dialogues. While not specifically looking for answers or to challenge my beliefs, the good news is that I have in no way been altered in my faith in God and the Holy Trinity.
 
#9
#9

One cannot deny the human influence on the Bible as they were written by man. I beleive it is universally accepted even by evangelicals that much of the NT was based on the memories of the Disciples years after Christ's death. This does not necessarily discount its validity but it still reflects man's interpretation of events.
 
#10
#10
One cannot deny the human influence on the Bible as they were written by man. I beleive it is universally accepted even by evangelicals that much of the NT was based on the memories of the Disciples years after Christ's death. This does not necessarily discount its validity but it still reflects man's interpretation of events.

God inspired man to write the Bible, he essentially used them to dictate his thought, I don't think that an all powerful God would need any human influence on writing His words. I understand different translations, but everything that God intended to be written was written exactly to his liking. I know it's simple but with God, he's pretty cut and dry.
 
#12
#12
God inspired man to write the Bible, he essentially used them to dictate his thought, I don't think that an all powerful God would need any human influence on writing His words.

then why have man transcribe it him him? Why not just drop the book into their laps completely finished? Plus the more times a story is passed around the better it seems to get
 
#13
#13
"You know, the New Testament is pretty old. I think they should call them the Old Testament and the Most Recent Testament."

- Steven Wright
 
#14
#14
then why have man transcribe it him him? Why not just drop the book into their laps completely finished? Plus the more times a story is passed around the better it seems to get

He did that once. Moses slammed em on the ground.:)

Seriously tho. There are some things in the OT and the NT that are hard to completely understand, but the main concepts and purpose of Christ are pretty simple. And those are the essentials.
 
#15
#15
Seriously tho. There are some things in the OT and the NT that are hard to completely understand, but the main concepts and purpose of Christ are pretty simple. And those are the essentials.

This, in a way, was what I was essentially getting at. Sorry Beech, I should have adressed the OP to sj and you as your posts indicate we were raised in similiar environments. I would be interested in your take as well.
 
#16
#16
This, in a way, was what I was essentially getting at. Sorry Beech, I should have adressed the OP to sj and you as your posts indicate we were raised in similiar environments. I would be interested in your take as well.

sjt answered it well.

Christ was fulfilling OT prophecy and was not sent to abolish or undermine the OT, as he stated. He made it clear that the way to the father (God) went through him. That was very different from the OT and many of the Jews did not understand him or his purpose which was pretty evident. That group is still waiting for the first coming.

As to evolution being apart of God and creation? When it gets to the beginning where God did not create and everything happened for no reason that would be the hang up for me. Past that, its kind of irrelevant to me if your speaking about the essentials.
 
#17
#17
He did that once. Moses slammed em on the ground.:)

Seriously tho. There are some things in the OT and the NT that are hard to completely understand, but the main concepts and purpose of Christ are pretty simple. And those are the essentials.

I completely agree, but consider this. Organic chemistry is hard to understand, but people put the necessary effort into it and do eventually understand it. A revelation from God would be even harder to understand and more complex than organic chemistry.

I find that the longer and more in depth I study both OT and NT, the more I recognize how they flow together and are indeed revelations from the same God. I don't understand every little detail, but I continue to work at it and thanks be to God for the understanding He has given me thus far.

Personally, I would recommend something like Bible Study Fellowship or Pathfinders to help improve Bible knowledge. It helps me dedicate more time to that worthy pursuit and less time watching Mike Rowe pull up a fence post or the Swamp Man pull up old logs.
 
#18
#18
the scriptures themselves aren't a manmade theory?

Not according to the scriptures. The Bible stakes the claim that it is a message from God. One can believe or reject it... but the claim is made.
 
#19
#19
Thanks for your opinions. I was curious about your views on the OT as I disagree with the concept of God as a vengeful, spiteful Lord as He is presented by some in a fundemenatlist way. I see him as loving, compassionate, caring and forgiving.
God is both just and loving. His holiness demands vengence against the rebellious but His love provides a way of grace throught faith in Christ.

The Bible says God can be angry and wrathful.

I think where most people get confused around the issue you address is with the notion that God is somehow picking on mankind when He executes judgment. The truth is that man's sin at every moment both individually and corporately deserves God's wrath. It isn't His "vengence" that is undeserved... it is His grace and mercy.

I would suggest "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards to you.

I see many holes in Darwin but tend to attribute the gaps as proof of God based on my beliefs (flowering plants is an example). At the same time, from a scientific perspective there was some value in the theory so I had to reconcile this with the idea that it is God's plan.
I'm not trying to nitpick you but DO NOT use "gaps" as proof of God. Accept or reject Him as Creator but do not relegate Him to the gaps in evolution. Just consider the arguments honestly. Avoid presupposing what you have been taught is correct just because good, intelligent people taught it to you.

As much as you can, drop your presuppositions and use the critical training you received in college to consider the "counter" argument that you weren't allowed to hear in college. It is more than likely a "better" argument than your professors told you... mostly because they were told it wasn't a serious argument and never really considered it themselves.

You will hear "there are mountains of evidence"... but when you get into and allow the other side to speak you may find that the facts have other very reasonable explanations.

It seems that you have already accepted a supernaturalist presupposition. You have much freedom from that premise. Just be willing to listen and have your mind changed if need be.

I ask these questions as I have been going through a sort of personal philosophical 'rennaisance'. I recently stuggled through Beyond Good and Evil and am currently reading Plato's Five Great Dialogues. While not specifically looking for answers or to challenge my beliefs, the good news is that I have in no way been altered in my faith in God and the Holy Trinity.

I was raised in a Baptist home but later became burdened about whether I could give a good answer for why I believe what I believe. I am still a Baptist but wholly reject numerous things I was taught were "very important"... and possibly even the difference between heaven and condemnation. The biblical admonition to "prove all things; hold to that which is true" is a VERY good rule to go by in every area of inquiry.

I have never been impressed by style or who yelled the loudest or who dominated the discussion or who had the most impressive credentials.

Charismatic or "Fire and Brimstone" preachers along with arrogant bully academics occupy the same realm. They are trying to win converts with something other than proof and rational arguments.
 
#20
#20
Plus the more times a story is passed around the better it seems to get

interesting that when all the manuscripts over centuries are compared there are only minor scribal changes that do not affect the overall meaning
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#21
#21
the scriptures themselves aren't a manmade theory?

then why wait decades after jesus' death to write the story?

then why have man transcribe it him him? Why not just drop the book into their laps completely finished? Plus the more times a story is passed around the better it seems to get

In case these questions are sincere, here's one verse that provides for the validity of the scriptures.

This is one of the reasons Christians believe that the scriptures are not manmade, time waited to write makes no difference and that the original meaning was not changed, enhanced or whatever other adjustments man would have made.

And like ST18 said, it's up to you to decide whether you can accept it or not.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 
#22
#22
He did that once. Moses slammed em on the ground.:)

Hah!

So does that mean God (infallible) made a mistake in trusting man, and then (though all knowing) learned from said mistake and passed his words through man the next go 'round?
 
#23
#23
Hah!

So does that mean God (infallible) made a mistake in trusting man, and then (though all knowing) learned from said mistake and passed his words through man the next go 'round?

It could mean that God was working with fallable man.
 
#24
#24
Hah!

So does that mean God (infallible) made a mistake in trusting man, and then (though all knowing) learned from said mistake and passed his words through man the next go 'round?

Im not sure trust would be a good word. He allows man to decide his own actions and accept the benefits or repercussions from them.

Them storms are getting close, is Memphis still standing?:)
 

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