Quit?

#1
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meekfan

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#1
There has been a lot of recent talk about quit. The perception is the LV's just hang it up or quit, usually in the 2nd half of games.
This is total BS. Not that it doesn't exist, it may, but it shouldn't be laid on players. This is totally a coaching failure. I'm sure each of us could quickly name 5-6 coaches that would absolutely go insane if their players didn't put out 100% all the time. Let's forget those 5-6 coaches - I'm pretty sure we would all pick pretty much the same ones.
Instead I think of some pretty mediocre teams (think AAC) who were getting the typical UCon beat down. I watched 2 of UCon's games recently. I think one was Houston, the other Memphis. Although they were getting the bejeezus kicked out of them, these teams played their hearts out, right to the end. It's the coaches job to keep the team focused all the time.

I remember several years ago watching ND. Muffet went ballistic in the 1st ten minutes and pulled all the starters. In the post game presser she stated it was due to their 'lack of effort'. We need some of that!
 
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#2
#2
meekfan said:
There has been a lot of recent talk about quit. The perception is the LV's just hang it up or quit, usually in the 2nd half of games.
This is total BS. Not that it doesn't exist, it may, but it shouldn't be laid on players. This is totally a coaching failure. I'm sure each of us could quickly name 5-6 coaches that would absolutely go insane if their players didn't put out 100% all the time. Let's forget those 5-6 coaches - I'm pretty sure we would all pick pretty much the same ones.
Instead I think of some pretty mediocre teams (think AAC) who were getting the typical UCon beat down. I watched 2 of UCon's games recently. I think one was Houston, the other Memphis. Although they were getting the bejeezus kicked out of them, these teams played their hearts out, right to the end. It's the coaches job to keep the team focused all the time.

I remember several years ago watching ND. Muffet went ballistic in the 1st ten minutes and pulled all the starters. In the post game presser she stated it was due to their 'lack of effort'. We need some of that!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your post about the LV's "quitting".

Is it "BS" or is it "Not that it doesn't exist, it may" ?

If they are quitting, we have more problems than what just a new coach can fix.
 
#4
#4
meekfan said:
There has been a lot of recent talk about quit. The perception is the LV's just hang it up or quit, usually in the 2nd half of games.
This is total BS. Not that it doesn't exist, it may, but it shouldn't be laid on players. This is totally a coaching failure. I'm sure each of us could quickly name 5-6 coaches that would absolutely go insane if their players didn't put out 100% all the time. Let's forget those 5-6 coaches - I'm pretty sure we would all pick pretty much the same ones.
Instead I think of some pretty mediocre teams (think AAC) who were getting the typical UCon beat down. I watched 2 of UCon's games recently. I think one was Houston, the other Memphis. Although they were getting the bejeezus kicked out of them, these teams played their hearts out, right to the end. It's the coaches job to keep the team focused all the program.

I remember several years ago watching ND. Muffet went ballistic in the 1st ten minutes and pulled all the starters. In the post game presser she stated it was due to their 'lack of effort'. We need some of that!
Click to expand...

I agree with the loafing, but read between the lines in the Andy Landers comment. Tennessee have so much individual talent, this is a surprise. It is more of having no offense than not running plays, they don't have a clue as what to do. If you watched the Arkansas game you can see they dribbled at least 18" BEHIND the 3 point line until about seven seconds. They then threw up a terrible shot unless it was Middleton and she drove and turned it over. Three out of the next four and maybe all four are loses. It is a sad time when someone that has been a Lady Vol will not step down for the good of the program. The woman CAN NOT COACH!
 
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#5
#5
Holly can't get the Lady Vols back to the top she has proved that, she is not a elite coach just a fair coach at a top 2 program, its like Mike Shula coaching bama back in the day.
 
#7
#7
Looked like Diamond quit against Arksnsas. She acted like she didn't want to be there. The announcers talked about her travel schedule. Whatever...
 
#8
#8
It does exist. I don't think the Lady Vols have quit on effort. They seem to give that. I just think they have quit on Holly. It's like they do their own thing. Hints why Russell and Graves get so few shots compared to Cooper and Deshields. Those 2 should be first looks then Deshields then other options.
 
#9
#9
I know the Dallas Cowboys fans always talk about the team quitting on the coach, but I really don't buy that. Sometimes things don't work and the players get frustrated and try to do something to get the momentum shifted in their direction, but just make things worse. The problem can be as simple as not being properly prepared for what's being thrown at them or nothing more than one player just having a bad day. I think what looks like the team quitting is nothing more than them getting out of sync, and that is happening all too often with the Lady Vols.

Generally, what you want to do in all sports is put your play-makers in position to have maximum impact on the game, and IMO that would mean building the offense around Diamond. I don't really know a tenth about basketball as the average poster here, but I'm sure Tennessee could find a coach who would know how to do that.
 
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#11
#11
How many threads do we need saying the same thing over and over just using different words? I think the horse died two days ago at least. Let's give it rest and see what happens Monday night. I'm not happy either, but this crap is getting old, especially since it doesn't mean a hill of beans to anybody in charge.
 
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#15
#15
We need to stop bashing and throwing players under the bus. Just who is running or not running this program? Programs hire coaches and pay them nice salaries to keep control of the team. If the problem is the players that falls directly into the HC coach's lap. Do we blame players for bad recruiting and a piss poor offense? Again, Holly seems like a nice person, and she may be the second coming of Mother Therasa, but she seem like anything but the second coming of a great, or even a good one, basketball coach.
 
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#16
#16
I think Holly's lame substitution and head scratching in game player management patterns are to blame for most of the team's losses. I think her initial starting lineup of Carter, Nared, Graves, Diamond and Russell play very well together and get a good momentum going, then at about the five minute mark of the 1st quarter of EVERY game, it's the same substitution pattern and all that momentum is lost. These same substitution patterns continue throughout the game killing any additional momentum that might have been gained. You can almost predict who is coming in and who is going out. Reynolds, Cooper, Middleton, Dunbar, and Jackson should not receive any significant minutes because they are just making way to many mistakes. Diamond is making a lot of mistakes, but you have to play her as she is really the only one who can score points right now...I think if she continues with the erratic substitutions, they could be looking at unexpected losses to the likes of Ole Miss, Alabama, and LSU...Playing with those initial five and bringing one or two off the bench to give the starters a blow and/or subbing in for foul trouble would probably give them their best chance to win. Look back at the Central Arky game when they only played six..Also, when they are missing as many shots as they have been, they aren't getting second chance shots and teams are scoring easily in transition..
 
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#17
#17
Many on these boards have voiced our concern for Holly's inability to find her best eight players and stick with them. We're at the mid-way point and the problem persists. Conclusion: Holly's either in over her head, clueless or both. I vote both! Or maybe she's afraid of major defections after the season if players and parents aren't happy. This is a possibility since no one has been signed in the 2016 class. What a mess Holly has created!

I agree with your personnel summary, boxerp..., but I would have Middleton spell Carter because she's improving and has proven she can hit a shot and get the ball inside more consistently than Reynolds or Cooper combined.

Reynolds, Cooper and Jackson only should see mop-up duty. Cooper needs to find out she isn't entitled to minutes because she is Diamond's best friend. Holly needs to make that clear asap.

Dunbar can be useful against the zone, but in practice let's pray the coaches are working on her defensive fundamentals daily.

Nia can spell Bash or Russell when needed but not or long stretches.

Jackson isn't ready for big-time women's college basketball, and with this coaching (especially the guard-centric Warlick and Law) she may never reach her potential.

It appears Jones's unfortunate injury will take this season away from her, but even before the mishap she was exhibiting the same frantic, low-iq play of last season. If she does return she'll need major change in her mindset to gain playing time.

I'm not sure what's going on with Nared. The hand? Her head (bb iq issues maybe)? Lack of coaching? I think (not sure) she has the potential to be great. Geno or whoever probably would have molded her into a superstar already. She's so athletic and runs the floor beautifully, but shot selection and decision-making skills have disappointed thus far this season.

Russell needs to grow up fast, Bash become a vocal leader and DD to put the pressure from Holly aside and play her game. Then if Carter and Middleton can man the point with less turnovers, this team could have a chance to make waves.

Go Lady Vols and good luck to Peyton and his Broncos this afternoon.
 
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#18
#18
I'm another one who thinks Middleton should be part of the regular rotation. She is the best distributor on the team, particularly interior passing.

I'm not sold on Carter as starting PG. She's had 2 assists and 10 TOs in the last 3 games (two of them losses). That's not the numbers for a good PG.

Reynolds perplexes me. She spent 37 minutes not even looking for her shot, then comes alive when the game is all but over. Arky didn't even guard her on the court.

Nared needs to learn the difference between a good shot and bad shot. She's got a pretty jump shot when her shoulders are squared, but she took so many off balance and clumsy looking shots...probably expecting to get bailed out by the refs. She needs to play smarter.

I don't know what to make of Cooper...I keep waiting for her breakout game, but she's been disappointing to say the least. PG was a spot that needed a huge upgrade, and she had a great opportunity to come in and make an immediate impact. Perhaps she's just not ready for the college level...

Bashaara, Mercedes and Diamond basically have to play 35+ minutes each for this team to remain competitive until the rest of the players get their act together.
 
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#19
#19
Great post, Amb3096, I actually didn't realize Carter's assist-to-turnover ratio the past few games. I think many of us give her a pass due to her hard play, solid defense and stellar attitude (she's major-league impressive off the court as well). Maybe Middleton needs more and more minutes if Carter is playing poorly in the moment.

I love Middleton's mindset, drive and stroke. She may be the best pure shooter (can create a shot whereas Dunbar rarely can, thus the distinction of best shooter) on the team. She's actually worked on her athleticism as well. She's running the floor better and has improved a bit (not enough, however) on the defensive side of the ball.

Totally agree about Cooper (thus far the most overrated freshman in the country, and yes, I was one of the ones touting her coming out of hs = major disappointment this far) and Reynolds. I'm convinced Reynolds is more a small forward than a guard. Holly loves the way she runs the floor; however, thus the stubborn insistence Jordan get major minutes at guard.

Holly's lack of ability to properly assess her team's individual talents scares and concerns me ... big time!
 
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#20
#20
Voldon18 said:
Great post, Amb3096, I actually didn't realize Carter's assist-to-turnover ratio the past few games. I think many of us give her a pass due to her hard play, solid defense and stellar attitude (she's major-league impressive off the court as well). Maybe Middleton needs more and more minutes if Carter is playing poorly in the moment.

I love Middleton's mindset, drive and stroke. She may be the best pure shooter (can create a shot whereas Dunbar rarely can, thus the distinction of best shooter) on the team. She's actually worked on her athleticism as well. She's running the floor better and has improved a bit (not enough, however) on the defensive side of the ball.

Totally agree about Cooper (thus far the most overrated freshman in the country, and yes, I was one of the ones touting her coming out of hs = major disappointment this far) and Reynolds. I'm convinced Reynolds is more a small forward than a guard. Holly loves the way she runs the floor; however, thus the stubborn insistence Jordan get major minutes at guard.

Holly's lack of ability to properly assess her team's individual talents scares and concerns me ... big time!
Click to expand...
Good post Voldon, I will only disagree about Carter's defense. She is consistently beaten off the dribble by whoever she guards. Don't know why but it happens often.
 
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#21
#21
Voldon18 said:
Great post, Amb3096, I actually didn't realize Carter's assist-to-turnover ratio the past few games. I think many of us give her a pass due to her hard play, solid defense and stellar attitude (she's major-league impressive off the court as well). Maybe Middleton needs more and more minutes if Carter is playing poorly in the moment.

I love Middleton's mindset, drive and stroke. She may be the best pure shooter (can create a shot whereas Dunbar rarely can, thus the distinction of best shooter) on the team. She's actually worked on her athleticism as well. She's running the floor better and has improved a bit (not enough, however) on the defensive side of the ball.

Totally agree about Cooper (thus far the most overrated freshman in the country, and yes, I was one of the ones touting her coming out of hs = major disappointment this far) and Reynolds. I'm convinced Reynolds is more a small forward than a guard. Holly loves the way she runs the floor; however, thus the stubborn insistence Jordan get major minutes at guard.

Holly's lack of ability to properly assess her team's individual talents scares and concerns me ... big time!
Click to expand...

Middleton has made a nice improvement since her freshman year. I think she is going to be a major contributor in her final two seasons.

For this season, however, I think she has found a niche where she can be successful. It is hard to compare someone in her limited role to another player who has the pressure of playing PG. I am pretty confident that if Middleton were the main PG her TO ratio and some other deficiencies in her game would become more apparent.

When it comes to Middleton, I think Holly is handling her about right. But, at her current level, she is a role player who has to complement what other players are doing.

Beyond Middleton, this team's offensive scheme makes it tough on PGs. Often times, they are left with very few options other than trying to make tough passes.

Right now, the main horses for this team-- DeShields, Graves, Russell, Carter, and Nared (with Jasmine's status remaining uncertain--need to deliver more and do it more consistently.

In the reality of top tier college basketball, it is the coaches responsibility to figure out ways to improve their teams (and players) chances of success. The players listed (as well as Jordan, Alex, Kortney, Tea, Nia, and Meme) have mixes of strengths and weaknesses (nothing unusual there). The coaching staff has to find ways to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses.

Demanding more effort when the team looks lost and uncertain on the court is not likely to solve the problem. If you are lost and running in circles, running harder will not get you to the right destination.

Demanding that the ball be forced inside is not going to make the difference unless you have some schemes for opening up passing lanes.

Prohibiting quick shooting and wanting 5-7 passes before each shot will not do it when the end result of all the passing is the ball being stuck out on the perimeter with 5 seconds on the clock. It is not clear to me why why desperation heaves with 1 second on the clock are seen as "better basketball" than taking a wide open jump shot earlier in the clock or why passing up a wide open jump shot to dribble into double coverage is a better play (Middleton is perhaps most prone to that problem).

Last but not least, I could accept that Holly is defensive minded coach (Like CPS or C. Viv stringer) if the team played locked down defense. They are not a great pressing team that people fear-- like KY has been in years past. Even Ark. with limited talent figured out how to break the LVs press and they could not get critical stops in the half court.

Personal loyalties or animosities aside, it is reasonable to ask if a coach should be able to do more with this group of players?
 
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#22
#22
Carter and Reynolds are posting career low shooting numbers and a/to ratios. Not only are guards not developing for Holly, they're regressing. Middleton has the potential to be a fine guard, but it's hard to be too optimistic about her development under this coaching staff....
 
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#23
#23
Diamond is a yo-yo and Holly apparently can't coach her. And, the team's chemistry has significantly deteriorated since last year. These same players who were playing better team ball last year seem absolutely lost. Diamond is a turnover machine and has a very low shooting percentage. And, when her and her buddy Cooper are in there together it is often disastrous. We don't need any stars. The great coaches really don't have stars on their team. The great coaches coach the great players to play within and promote team and structure the player into a defined role on their team. We don't need Diamond and Cooper dribbling down the court and jacking up shots.
 
#24
#24
Darth_Vol said:
Carter and Reynolds are posting career low shooting numbers and a/to ratios. Not only are guards not developing for Holly, they're regressing. Middleton has the potential to be a fine guard, but it's hard to be too optimistic about her development under this coaching staff....
Click to expand...

I think part of that is Holly has poorly managed Deshields and Cooper into the mix and has resulted in poorer play from her other players.
 
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